Xref: number1.nntp.dca.giganews.com seattle.politics:404005 wash.politics:83809 az.general:187955 az.politics:89674
I don't believe you're being serious, Carl. I mean to say you're not
offering your real opinion, I suspect. That, in part, is demonstrated
by your continuing jabs at Washington apples and your suggestion that
Washington keep migrant workers year-round. What do you think Amnesty
would accomplish? The question is rhetorical insomuch as I believe you
know the answer all too well.
"Hungry for work?" Doesn't that say something important? Their "work"
is not paying for their presence in the U.S. -- including Arizona and
New Mexico? Are they taking American jobs or are they taking jobs that
Americans typically abandon? Who would harvest New Mexico's peanuts,
Carl? Would amnesty and open borders not determine that those who are
illegal now and who don't pay their fair share for hospital and
educational services might well document themselves and so pay in the
knowledge that they are not subject to summary deportation?
Migrant workers are here to WORK. KEYWORD: "WORK!"
They often perform the most disgusting tasks from which most us
shrink. You're going to haul life-threatening (or shortening) garbage,
cleanup someone's vomit and poop, tend someone's garden when it's 110
degrees in the shade, nanny someone's toddler day in and day out or
wash dishes in the hot and humid environment of a restaurant kitchen
from the time the restaurant opens for business until after the last
dinner plate is washed? You wouldn't do these things, would you, Carl?
Neither would most Americans. But these are jobs that must be done --
at least from the point of view of the employer and his/her customers.
Undocumented workers are happy to do them. Here I don't defend
that employers "pay under the table" or that many of these workers are
expected to do things and take risks that labor regulation and law
prohibits. But the point is that the workers -- those undocumented
workers against whom you rail -- are willing to do things and take
risks we will not. That shouldn't be forgotten.
Isn't it true that the quickest path to documenting the undocumented
is to declare amnesty? Isn't it true that the documented can then be
integrated into the system with all that entails -- employers who must
pay a decent wage as well as abide by labor laws, employees that must
get a driver's license and car insurance, employees that can seek
remedy for abuse from their employer and so on? You'll have your
American apples at a higher price than they are now. But nearly
everyone would be documented and integrated into the system. Yes; this
will make first-generation naturalized citizens quite angry -- they
who had to wait in their nation of birth for the opportunity to enter
America and then five years of hardship to establish themselves here,
including separation from family, until they attain citizenship. But
they should realize (1) there's a crucial difference themselves and
those who intend only to be "guest workers' rather than prospective
citizens, that (2) human existence is not experienced or traveled upon
a flat plane or without a fork in the road essential to some but not
others and that (3) their effort is not diminished by amnesty in that
they are here for the long haul under which they will receive benefits
so-called "guest workers" shall not.
Living that varies from one person to the next within a society is a
process. It is the way life is and must be accepted unless you would
have everyone be automotons who do everything in precisely the same
way having precisely the same priorities. Living life as an automoton,
where almost everyone else is equally an automoton, would be Huxley's
"Brave New World." I've never believed Huxley's fictitious World could
be real. But it seems it is this for which many people dream. That's
the World in which no-one can come to another country and work but as
a prospective citizen and only because they intend to stay -- to adopt
the place as their new home. In reality, this is not even what
the American business community would prefer from its foreign
Pickup a phone to call customer service at a major bank, a telephone
company or the producers of a major software package, and you may be
talking to someone in another country using broken English. That's
right; where employers can't hire work at lower cost to their bottom
line within the U.S., they're going offshore -- not where it's wet, by
the way, Captain Marvel -- to get what they need. So, if you'd blame
those who own and maintain apple orchards here in Washington state or
those who own and maintain vast fields of peanuts in New Mexico, you'd
have to blame many others in the general business community because,
in most cases, the only reason why employers use them is to improve
their bottom line and the only reason they don't use migrant workers
on U.S. soil is that such is not feasible. If it were feasible in the
latter instance, they'd go for it in a New York minute. In effect, you
don't have undocumented workers to rail against; you have much of
American culture to blame -- its priorities and needs.
As for your notion I lied when I started "this dialogue:" You're
wrong. I wanted and I still want to see input from folks in Arizona.
That does not mean nor should it mean that I would keep my opinions to
myself. I never stated I'd operate on that provision. It's rather
naive to expect someone to do that -- especially on USENET. If we're
having a "dialogue," that doesn't mean you're the only one who gets to
type and express an opinion here. That would be a "monologue." I can
learn from your perspective; you can learn from mine and anyone else
who pipes up.
Finally, don't treat Washington as though it is not subjected to an
influx of illegals twelve months a year. Seattle is a major port to
which people from Asia flock -- including illegals. We don't have
quite the traffic you do from the Mexican border. But we DO have a
steady and significant flow year-round. You have radio and TV in
Spanish. You also have communities where one should enter only if they
can speak Spanish. Here, we have the same but for Asian migrants. I
often get wrong-number phonecalls from people speaking an Asian
dialect and who can't understand a word of English.
Post by Carl Legner Post by Walter Scott
I don't miss that they're illegal, Carl. I disagree, though, that
consideration of the relevant problem(s) should stop there. Neither do
I believe that hermetically sealing off America to interdict illegals
is a proper solution. The solution lies somewhere in the reasons why
illegals want to enter the U.S. illegally and finding a way to
redirect that incentive.
You want them, you keep them. You mention California, Arizona, and New
Mexico. Add Texas, too. We have them here. They stay here. When picking
is over, we are stuck with them. They don't go home. They sleep in our
alleys, in our dumpsters, and in apartments with 20 or 30 people jammed in
together. They fill our emergency rooms, our welfare offices, our soup
kitchens, and our schools. They do not pay taxes because they are illegals
so they get paid under the table. They drive on our streets without
insurance in unsafe cars.
Why do we have this problem with the illegal alien population? Two reasons.
First, we are close to Mexico. The farmers invite them in to pick their
fruit. States like Washington, Oregon, Michigan, Minnisota, etc etc. use
them by the truckload. Then, snowfall and they all head to the warm
climates. We have them everywhere like an infestion of mosquitos. Hungry
for work, a place to live, and dignity. And you guys up there can close
your eyes and sleep knowing that you have rid of them for another 8 months
until you can USE them again.
Second reason is because the Mexican economy sucks! Maybe the problem would
better addressed if the stores started to buy the Mexican fruit so Mexican
workers can live and work at home. Maybe if they raised the prices to the
same as what we pay for Washington fruit, they could make a profit.
And don't expect us to feel sorry for the "independent farmer". The
blacksmiths are gone. Swallowed up by progress. So were the laundries,
milkmen, keypunch operators, switchboard workers, and telegraph operators.
If the small farmer cannot survive without artificially stacking the cards,
then maybe they should get out of the business and let the economies still
based on agriculture have at it.
You lied when you started this dialogue. You asked for comments and our
thoughts. You haven't heard a word. You were looking for a soapbox. You
don't have one in Arizona. Your soapbox is a coffin of an illegal alien who
died on the desert, coming up to pick your stinking apples. Maybe
Washington needs a few forest fires to show them the value of a tree...
The search for truth requires the courage to accept it.
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