Discussion:
Governor Locke Opposes Bush Plan For Migrant Workers And Advocates For Amnesty
(too old to reply)
Walter Scott
2004-06-27 02:32:39 UTC
Permalink
Xref: number1.nntp.dca.giganews.com seattle.politics:403053 wash.politics:83665 az.general:187783 az.politics:89534


In today's Tacoma Tribune, the Associated Press reports that Governor
Gary Locke "says he opposes President Bush's proposed temporary guest
worker program, and is more in favor of an amnesty." The Governor,
while in Mexico's Western Jalisco state to promote Washington apples
and other products, also stated he is "grateful to the Mexicans for
their contributions, their work in Washington and [he is] opposed to
discrimination against them." Locke points to, as the Associated Press
put it, the fact Washington state "is spending $40 million to build
permanent and temporary housing for migrant farmworkers as well as
offering free health care to pregnant and undocumented women."

http://www.tribnet.com/news/local/story/5233854p-5168453c.html

We in Washington are rather dependent upon undocumented migrant
workers to harvest our crops and pick our fruit. Without them, no-one
could afford to buy a Washington apple; that's if they'd even be
picked. But in Arizona, the perspective of some folks is quite
different. Thus, I've included az.general and az.politics in this
discussion under the hope that people from Arizona will put in their
two cents (or more) on whether Governor Locke and Washington state
government are doing the right thing. Perhaps it's the right thing for
us but could never be right for Arizona? Perhaps circumstances there
and here just can't be compared? Or maybe they can? What would happen
to Arizona without lots of migrant workers? Would Arizona's economy
suffer just as would ours? Do Mexicans not ADD to what Arizona has to
offer its citizens and beyond? Is there really significant job-loss to
Mexicans in Arizona from which Arizonans would otherwise benefit? Or
are these jobs that the vast majority of Arizonans would never take at
the wage employers are willing to surrender?

For those of us here in Washington: some Arizona residents would tell
you of higher crime near their border with Mexico and increased usage
of vital services -- hospitals and schools -- at taxpayer expense or
incurred private debt which has caused some facilities to close their
doors or shut certain services simply to survive. If it can be proven
that it all hasn't balanced out or won't soon balance out, why
shouldn't we assume that Arizona's circumstances are but a harbinger
of what we may soon expect? What's the right and wrong thing to do in
all this?

The search for truth requires the courage to accept it.

NTReader v0.37w(P)/Beta (Registered) in conjunction with Net-Tamer.
Captain Marvel
2004-06-27 18:46:30 UTC
Permalink
Govenor Locke is a big piñata. If you hit him with a stick, candy will fall
out his asshole, right after his head. Fuck his apples.
w.N.(Bill) McCaw
2004-06-27 23:45:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Captain Marvel
Govenor Locke is a big piñata. If you hit him with a stick, candy will fall
out his asshole, right after his head. Fuck his apples.
I think the comic Captain Marvel was a little bit more erudite that thee!

Are you willing for you and your offspring to change sprinklers in the
farm fields, pick the crops, clean the hotels, Etc. Etc.

We are about 20% Latino in Washington, maybe 5-10% undocumented?

What do you want to do with them, or are you must mouthing off?

Cheers! W.N.(Bill) McCaw
"The smallest dog can lift his leg on the tallest building" (Hightower)
Captain Marvel
2004-06-28 05:09:02 UTC
Permalink
I will pay you and other Democrats on welfare to pick apples. Apples were
picked quite efficiently before the influx of illegal aliens. So were all
the fruits and vegetables.
Deport the illegals at a rate slightly faster than they can cross the
border. Protect the border with our military.
w.N.(Bill) McCaw
2004-06-28 14:04:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Captain Marvel
I will pay you and other Democrats on welfare to pick apples. Apples were
picked quite efficiently before the influx of illegal aliens. So were all
the fruits and vegetables.
Deport the illegals at a rate slightly faster than they can cross the
border. Protect the border with our military.
Back to the Grapes of Wrath eh?

Most of we Democrats work for our bread just like the rest of the
country. Welfare people are mostly there because of unforeseen breaks
in their past economic life.

Even you could be on the dole in a week given the proper events in your
life.

Any one of us who drive automobiles could be behind bars for involuntary
manslaughter in the blink of an eye.

We cannot control all the processes that affect our lives.

The one bright spot is that we can vote and elect those that are caring
and community minded.

Cheers! W.N.(Bill) McCaw
"The smallest dog can lift his leg on the tallest building" (Hightower)
Captain Marvel
2004-06-28 16:46:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by w.N.(Bill) McCaw
Post by Captain Marvel
I will pay you and other Democrats on welfare to pick apples. Apples were
picked quite efficiently before the influx of illegal aliens. So were all
the fruits and vegetables.
Deport the illegals at a rate slightly faster than they can cross the
border. Protect the border with our military.
Back to the Grapes of Wrath eh?
Most of we Democrats work for our bread just like the rest of the
country. Welfare people are mostly there because of unforeseen breaks
in their past economic life.
Even you could be on the dole in a week given the proper events in your
life.
Any one of us who drive automobiles could be behind bars for involuntary
manslaughter in the blink of an eye.
We cannot control all the processes that affect our lives.
The one bright spot is that we can vote and elect those that are caring
and community minded.
Cheers! W.N.(Bill) McCaw
"The smallest dog can lift his leg on the tallest building" (Hightower)
Stop, you've got me bawling. Surely, I will switch my vote to Kerry.
grandwazoo
2004-06-28 21:55:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by w.N.(Bill) McCaw
Post by Captain Marvel
I will pay you and other Democrats on welfare to pick apples. Apples were
picked quite efficiently before the influx of illegal aliens. So were all
the fruits and vegetables.
Deport the illegals at a rate slightly faster than they can cross the
border. Protect the border with our military.
Back to the Grapes of Wrath eh?
Most of we Democrats work for our bread just like the rest of the
country. Welfare people are mostly there because of unforeseen breaks
in their past economic life.
Not on your life! If you fail economicaly you will not be put on the welfare
roll, if you are male. Last time I checked only 6% of welfare recipients in
Arizona were male. Of that, 4% are male heads of house hold with children.
The remaining 2% were dissabled persons who did not qualify for other
benifits. The idea that the saftey net would protect you in an economic
crisis is a myth.
Post by w.N.(Bill) McCaw
Cheers! W.N.(Bill) McCaw
"The smallest dog can lift his leg on the tallest building" (Hightower)
Walter Scott
2004-06-28 18:55:02 UTC
Permalink
Xref: number1.nntp.dca.giganews.com seattle.politics:403510 wash.politics:83740 az.general:187897 az.politics:89628


I don't think anyone would or could dispute that crops were harvested
and fruit picked "efficiently" by documented or citizen farmworkers.
But you skate past why the situation has changed and which came first
or ever happened at all: an influx of undocumented workers to take
jobs from Americans or Americans leaving such jobs while farmers and
others then sought out undocumented workers as employees to fill the
void. Talk to some farmers.

Are you willing to accept the possibility that forcing farmers to
exclusively hire documented or citizen farmworkers might drive the
cost of produce in grocery stores through the roof? Are you willing to
accept the possibility that forcing independent farmers to exclusively
hire documented or citizen farmworkers will drive a large portion if
not most of them out of farming? Are you willing to accept that
forcing large agri-business farming operations to hire documented or
citizen workers shall likely force them to relocate their farming
operations offshore to improve their bottomline? Or are you convinced
that documented or citizen farmworkers will work for the wages
undocumented workers have been paid?
Post by Captain Marvel
I will pay you and other Democrats on welfare to pick apples. Apples were
picked quite efficiently before the influx of illegal aliens. So were all
the fruits and vegetables.
Deport the illegals at a rate slightly faster than they can cross the
border. Protect the border with our military.
The search for truth requires the courage to accept it.

NTReader v0.37w(P)/Beta (Registered) in conjunction with Net-Tamer.
Captain Marvel
2004-06-29 01:50:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Walter Scott
I don't think anyone would or could dispute that crops were harvested
and fruit picked "efficiently" by documented or citizen farmworkers.
But you skate past why the situation has changed and which came first
or ever happened at all: an influx of undocumented workers to take
jobs from Americans or Americans leaving such jobs while farmers and
others then sought out undocumented workers as employees to fill the
void. Talk to some farmers.
Farmers hire peopleto work, they aren't immigration officers.
Post by Walter Scott
Are you willing to accept the possibility that forcing farmers to
exclusively hire documented or citizen farmworkers might drive the
cost of produce in grocery stores through the roof? Are you willing to
accept the possibility that forcing independent farmers to exclusively
hire documented or citizen farmworkers will drive a large portion if
not most of them out of farming? Are you willing to accept that
forcing large agri-business farming operations to hire documented or
citizen workers shall likely force them to relocate their farming
operations offshore to improve their bottomline? Or are you convinced
that documented or citizen farmworkers will work for the wages
undocumented workers have been paid?
Cost is determined by supply and demand, not the Mexican or American picker.
People buy bananas at 3 lbs. for a dollar in cut rate stores, and 59 cents a
pound in other grocery stores. They don't care, they like bananas. In Mexico
they are ten cents a pound. So where is our Mexican worker break in cost?
Have you ever tried farming off shore? It's wet.
Are you willing to pay for hospitalization, retirement, housing, food
stamps, clothing, depreciation of your house, your neighborhood, your
businesses, and pay for rehabilitating slums of Mexicans, pay more car
insurance because Mexican don't buy it. Pay for upkeep of public
transportation, and roads, and every other public facility, just so you can
buy a cheaper apple? Get you head out of your butt.
Post by Walter Scott
Post by Captain Marvel
I will pay you and other Democrats on welfare to pick apples. Apples were
picked quite efficiently before the influx of illegal aliens. So were all
the fruits and vegetables.
Deport the illegals at a rate slightly faster than they can cross the
border. Protect the border with our military.
The search for truth requires the courage to accept it.
NTReader v0.37w(P)/Beta (Registered) in conjunction with Net-Tamer.
Walter Scott
2004-06-29 03:11:52 UTC
Permalink
Xref: number1.nntp.dca.giganews.com seattle.politics:403711 wash.politics:83753 az.general:187920 az.politics:89647


If it's your assertion, Captain, that the cost of labor does not have
some impact on the cost of produce at the grocery store, I'd like to
see some evidence of that. It's illogical to believe it wouldn't.

Some people may have so much money they don't have to comparison shop,
use coupons and watch for sales. I don't think that's the typical
shopper -- particularly when the shopper is shopping for a family of
four or more people. Of course, there are some people who are silly in
the way they shop; they buy what they want directly after they've been
paid then go without many of those things they like or need as their
money runs out. Folks who are trying to save money and stay within a
tight budget are why the discount stores exist.

Comparing the price of bananas in Mexico to that of bananas in
America then asking why employment of Mexican illegals doesn't equate
to a similar "break" in cost seems not to be a serious question or, if
it IS a serious question, you don't appreciate the differences between
Mexico's economy, its agricultural resources as opposed to ours along
with the differences in the technology of farming there and here as
well as the overhead derived from agricultural regulation and
marketing & distribution procedures that aren't the same in each
venue. But the question really wasn't serious, was it?

Oh, and I didn't laugh about farming offshore being "wet."
Post by Captain Marvel
Post by Walter Scott
Are you willing to accept the possibility that forcing farmers to
exclusively hire documented or citizen farmworkers might drive the
cost of produce in grocery stores through the roof? Are you willing to
accept the possibility that forcing independent farmers to exclusively
hire documented or citizen farmworkers will drive a large portion if
not most of them out of farming? Are you willing to accept that
forcing large agri-business farming operations to hire documented or
citizen workers shall likely force them to relocate their farming
operations offshore to improve their bottomline? Or are you convinced
that documented or citizen farmworkers will work for the wages
undocumented workers have been paid?
Cost is determined by supply and demand, not the Mexican or American picker.
People buy bananas at 3 lbs. for a dollar in cut rate stores, and 59 cents a
pound in other grocery stores. They don't care, they like bananas. In Mexico
they are ten cents a pound. So where is our Mexican worker break in cost?
The search for truth requires the courage to accept it.

NTReader v0.37w(P)/Beta (Registered) in conjunction with Net-Tamer.
Diamante No Áspero 11D
2004-06-29 03:16:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Walter Scott
If it's your assertion, Captain, that the cost of labor does not have
some impact on the cost of produce at the grocery store, I'd like to
see some evidence of that. It's illogical to believe it wouldn't.
Some people may have so much money they don't have to comparison shop,
use coupons and watch for sales. I don't think that's the typical
shopper -- particularly when the shopper is shopping for a family of
four or more people.
Try one or more now . . .
Shaking my AZ Willie
2004-06-29 07:34:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Diamante No Áspero 11D
Post by Walter Scott
If it's your assertion, Captain, that the cost of labor does not have
some impact on the cost of produce at the grocery store, I'd like to
see some evidence of that. It's illogical to believe it wouldn't.
Some people may have so much money they don't have to comparison shop,
use coupons and watch for sales. I don't think that's the typical
shopper -- particularly when the shopper is shopping for a family of
four or more people.
Try one or more now . . .
The Democrats keep killing their babies with abortions so they have smaller
families.
Diamante No Áspero 11D
2004-06-29 07:39:07 UTC
Permalink
Kitten Molester!
Post by Shaking my AZ Willie
Post by Diamante No Áspero 11D
Post by Walter Scott
If it's your assertion, Captain, that the cost of labor does not have
some impact on the cost of produce at the grocery store, I'd like to
see some evidence of that. It's illogical to believe it wouldn't.
Some people may have so much money they don't have to comparison shop,
use coupons and watch for sales. I don't think that's the typical
shopper -- particularly when the shopper is shopping for a family of
four or more people.
Try one or more now . . .
The Democrats keep killing their babies with abortions so they have smaller
families.
Shaking my AZ Willie
2004-06-29 07:34:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Walter Scott
If it's your assertion, Captain, that the cost of labor does not have
some impact on the cost of produce at the grocery store, I'd like to
see some evidence of that. It's illogical to believe it wouldn't.
Some people may have so much money they don't have to comparison shop,
use coupons and watch for sales. I don't think that's the typical
shopper -- particularly when the shopper is shopping for a family of
four or more people. Of course, there are some people who are silly in
the way they shop; they buy what they want directly after they've been
paid then go without many of those things they like or need as their
money runs out. Folks who are trying to save money and stay within a
tight budget are why the discount stores exist.
Comparing the price of bananas in Mexico to that of bananas in
America then asking why employment of Mexican illegals doesn't equate
to a similar "break" in cost seems not to be a serious question or, if
it IS a serious question, you don't appreciate the differences between
Mexico's economy, its agricultural resources as opposed to ours along
with the differences in the technology of farming there and here as
well as the overhead derived from agricultural regulation and
marketing & distribution procedures that aren't the same in each
venue. But the question really wasn't serious, was it?
Oh, and I didn't laugh about farming offshore being "wet."
I did not say that that the cost of labor has no impact, but supply and
demand are bigger factors. Take a look at the specialty produce and the
cost. What I am pointing out is that it is not worth the savings at the
store when I have to pay for the other 16 hours of an illegal Mexicans day
and pay for he and his family from cradle to grave. If I could lower my
mandatory uninsured motorist insurance cost, you could keep your damn
apples. If I didn't have to pay for the hospitalization and schooling of
every Mexican that can hop, skip, or jump across the border, I'd never eat
another fucking apple. If we could get the Mexican criminals off our
streets, you can shove the apples up your grand wazoo.
Diamante No Áspero 11D
2004-06-29 07:55:12 UTC
Permalink
http://www13.pair.com/handman/tijuana.rm
Post by Shaking my AZ Willie
Post by Walter Scott
If it's your assertion, Captain, that the cost of labor does not have
some impact on the cost of produce at the grocery store, I'd like to
see some evidence of that. It's illogical to believe it wouldn't.
Some people may have so much money they don't have to comparison shop,
use coupons and watch for sales. I don't think that's the typical
shopper -- particularly when the shopper is shopping for a family of
four or more people. Of course, there are some people who are silly in
the way they shop; they buy what they want directly after they've been
paid then go without many of those things they like or need as their
money runs out. Folks who are trying to save money and stay within a
tight budget are why the discount stores exist.
Comparing the price of bananas in Mexico to that of bananas in
America then asking why employment of Mexican illegals doesn't equate
to a similar "break" in cost seems not to be a serious question or, if
it IS a serious question, you don't appreciate the differences between
Mexico's economy, its agricultural resources as opposed to ours along
with the differences in the technology of farming there and here as
well as the overhead derived from agricultural regulation and
marketing & distribution procedures that aren't the same in each
venue. But the question really wasn't serious, was it?
Oh, and I didn't laugh about farming offshore being "wet."
I did not say that that the cost of labor has no impact, but supply and
demand are bigger factors. Take a look at the specialty produce and the
cost. What I am pointing out is that it is not worth the savings at the
store when I have to pay for the other 16 hours of an illegal Mexicans day
and pay for he and his family from cradle to grave. If I could lower my
mandatory uninsured motorist insurance cost, you could keep your damn
apples. If I didn't have to pay for the hospitalization and schooling of
every Mexican that can hop, skip, or jump across the border, I'd never eat
another fucking apple. If we could get the Mexican criminals off our
streets, you can shove the apples up your grand wazoo.
Diamante No Áspero 11D
2004-06-29 07:54:35 UTC
Permalink
http://www13.pair.com/handman/tijuana.rm
Post by Walter Scott
If it's your assertion, Captain, that the cost of labor does not have
some impact on the cost of produce at the grocery store, I'd like to
see some evidence of that. It's illogical to believe it wouldn't.
Some people may have so much money they don't have to comparison shop,
use coupons and watch for sales. I don't think that's the typical
shopper -- particularly when the shopper is shopping for a family of
four or more people. Of course, there are some people who are silly in
the way they shop; they buy what they want directly after they've been
paid then go without many of those things they like or need as their
money runs out. Folks who are trying to save money and stay within a
tight budget are why the discount stores exist.
Comparing the price of bananas in Mexico to that of bananas in
America then asking why employment of Mexican illegals doesn't equate
to a similar "break" in cost seems not to be a serious question or, if
it IS a serious question, you don't appreciate the differences between
Mexico's economy, its agricultural resources as opposed to ours along
with the differences in the technology of farming there and here as
well as the overhead derived from agricultural regulation and
marketing & distribution procedures that aren't the same in each
venue. But the question really wasn't serious, was it?
Oh, and I didn't laugh about farming offshore being "wet."
Post by Captain Marvel
Post by Walter Scott
Are you willing to accept the possibility that forcing farmers to
exclusively hire documented or citizen farmworkers might drive the
cost of produce in grocery stores through the roof? Are you willing to
accept the possibility that forcing independent farmers to exclusively
hire documented or citizen farmworkers will drive a large portion if
not most of them out of farming? Are you willing to accept that
forcing large agri-business farming operations to hire documented or
citizen workers shall likely force them to relocate their farming
operations offshore to improve their bottomline? Or are you convinced
that documented or citizen farmworkers will work for the wages
undocumented workers have been paid?
Cost is determined by supply and demand, not the Mexican or American picker.
People buy bananas at 3 lbs. for a dollar in cut rate stores, and 59 cents a
pound in other grocery stores. They don't care, they like bananas. In Mexico
they are ten cents a pound. So where is our Mexican worker break in cost?
The search for truth requires the courage to accept it.
NTReader v0.37w(P)/Beta (Registered) in conjunction with Net-Tamer.
w.N.(Bill) McCaw
2004-06-27 23:33:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Walter Scott
In today's Tacoma Tribune, the Associated Press reports that Governor
Gary Locke "says he opposes President Bush's proposed temporary guest
worker program, and is more in favor of an amnesty." The Governor,
while in Mexico's Western Jalisco state to promote Washington apples
and other products, also stated he is "grateful to the Mexicans for
their contributions, their work in Washington and [he is] opposed to
discrimination against them." Locke points to, as the Associated Press
put it, the fact Washington state "is spending $40 million to build
permanent and temporary housing for migrant farmworkers as well as
offering free health care to pregnant and undocumented women."
http://www.tribnet.com/news/local/story/5233854p-5168453c.html
We in Washington are rather dependent upon undocumented migrant
workers to harvest our crops and pick our fruit. Without them, no-one
could afford to buy a Washington apple; that's if they'd even be
picked. But in Arizona, the perspective of some folks is quite
different. Thus, I've included az.general and az.politics in this
discussion under the hope that people from Arizona will put in their
two cents (or more) on whether Governor Locke and Washington state
government are doing the right thing. Perhaps it's the right thing for
us but could never be right for Arizona? Perhaps circumstances there
and here just can't be compared? Or maybe they can? What would happen
to Arizona without lots of migrant workers? Would Arizona's economy
suffer just as would ours? Do Mexicans not ADD to what Arizona has to
offer its citizens and beyond? Is there really significant job-loss to
Mexicans in Arizona from which Arizonans would otherwise benefit? Or
are these jobs that the vast majority of Arizonans would never take at
the wage employers are willing to surrender?
For those of us here in Washington: some Arizona residents would tell
you of higher crime near their border with Mexico and increased usage
of vital services -- hospitals and schools -- at taxpayer expense or
incurred private debt which has caused some facilities to close their
doors or shut certain services simply to survive. If it can be proven
that it all hasn't balanced out or won't soon balance out, why
shouldn't we assume that Arizona's circumstances are but a harbinger
of what we may soon expect? What's the right and wrong thing to do in
all this?
The search for truth requires the courage to accept it.
NTReader v0.37w(P)/Beta (Registered) in conjunction with Net-Tamer.
A guest worker program for agriculture works well is the labor
contractors can be regulated so the temporary workers don't get shafted.

There should be programs for those that want to work up here to earn
money for the farm or business back in Mexico and then return, but also,
those that want to assimilate and stay should be given the opportunity
to work toward citizenship.

Latinos are steadily increasing their percentage of the total
population, so it might be a good idea to look into teaching Spanish
language in the early grades.

One of the schools in Walla Walla WA started a program of taking a group
of first graders and making up several rooms of relatively equal
populations of English and Spanish speaking students and then
alternating the language the teacher uses for her primary instruction
between the two languages every year. Each primary student would have
half of their time being taught in each language.

Interesting! We'll see how it all works out.

Cheers! W.N.(BIll) McCaw
"The smallest dog can lift his leg on the tallest building" (Hightower)
Carl Legner
2004-06-28 18:08:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by w.N.(Bill) McCaw
Post by Walter Scott
In today's Tacoma Tribune, the Associated Press reports that Governor
Gary Locke "says he opposes President Bush's proposed temporary guest
worker program, and is more in favor of an amnesty." The Governor,
while in Mexico's Western Jalisco state to promote Washington apples
and other products, also stated he is "grateful to the Mexicans for
their contributions, their work in Washington and [he is] opposed to
discrimination against them." Locke points to, as the Associated Press
put it, the fact Washington state "is spending $40 million to build
permanent and temporary housing for migrant farmworkers as well as
offering free health care to pregnant and undocumented women."
http://www.tribnet.com/news/local/story/5233854p-5168453c.html
We in Washington are rather dependent upon undocumented migrant
workers to harvest our crops and pick our fruit. Without them, no-one
could afford to buy a Washington apple; that's if they'd even be
picked. But in Arizona, the perspective of some folks is quite
different. Thus, I've included az.general and az.politics in this
discussion under the hope that people from Arizona will put in their
two cents (or more) on whether Governor Locke and Washington state
government are doing the right thing. Perhaps it's the right thing for
us but could never be right for Arizona? Perhaps circumstances there
and here just can't be compared? Or maybe they can? What would happen
to Arizona without lots of migrant workers? Would Arizona's economy
suffer just as would ours? Do Mexicans not ADD to what Arizona has to
offer its citizens and beyond? Is there really significant job-loss to
Mexicans in Arizona from which Arizonans would otherwise benefit? Or
are these jobs that the vast majority of Arizonans would never take at
the wage employers are willing to surrender?
For those of us here in Washington: some Arizona residents would tell
you of higher crime near their border with Mexico and increased usage
of vital services -- hospitals and schools -- at taxpayer expense or
incurred private debt which has caused some facilities to close their
doors or shut certain services simply to survive. If it can be proven
that it all hasn't balanced out or won't soon balance out, why
shouldn't we assume that Arizona's circumstances are but a harbinger
of what we may soon expect? What's the right and wrong thing to do in
all this?
The search for truth requires the courage to accept it.
NTReader v0.37w(P)/Beta (Registered) in conjunction with Net-Tamer.
A guest worker program for agriculture works well is the labor
contractors can be regulated so the temporary workers don't get shafted.
There should be programs for those that want to work up here to earn
money for the farm or business back in Mexico and then return, but also,
those that want to assimilate and stay should be given the opportunity
to work toward citizenship.
Latinos are steadily increasing their percentage of the total
population, so it might be a good idea to look into teaching Spanish
language in the early grades.
One of the schools in Walla Walla WA started a program of taking a group
of first graders and making up several rooms of relatively equal
populations of English and Spanish speaking students and then
alternating the language the teacher uses for her primary instruction
between the two languages every year. Each primary student would have
half of their time being taught in each language.
Interesting! We'll see how it all works out.
Cheers! W.N.(BIll) McCaw
"The smallest dog can lift his leg on the tallest building" (Hightower)
You got a deal, Bonehead. We, in Arizona, will send all the illegal aliens
to you. We will be more than happy to keep the documented, legal,
hardworking, family-oriented immegrants. You can have the ones that come in
illegally, get paid under the table so they do not pay taxes but they will
use your emergency rooms, welfare, public housing, drive your roads
uninsured and unlicensed. Never mind the fact that their mere presence is
AGAINST THE LAW! Make you own kids learn Spanish so they won't know who
they are or where they came from. Bow and cowtow and blither and dip to the
lawbreakers. It is easy for you to suggest such as when the snow falls and
the season is over, they will all head back down here. Your head is one
huge donut. Frosting on the outside but empty in the middle.

Meanwhile, we will teach the immigant children to speak English, help their
parents assimilate so they won't want to work for your stinking pitance of a
apple-picking job so even more illegals will be required to do your crap
jobs. I will continue buying MY apples at fruit stands and grocery stores
that buy their produce from Mexico where the apples are fresher, thinner
skins, and actually taste like apples. Best Washington Delicious apple I
have had in years came from a friend who came back from visiting his parents
in Mexico. It was grown in Sonora. Mexico.

Arbuck
"My only prejudice is against people who use their brains for nothing more
that to keep the backs of their eyes warm."
Walter Scott
2004-06-28 20:01:19 UTC
Permalink
Xref: number1.nntp.dca.giganews.com seattle.politics:403548 wash.politics:83744 az.general:187898 az.politics:89630


What do you suggest, Carl, for farmers, not just those who own and
maintain apple orchards in Washington state? You mention the
"pittance" paid to illegals. The fact illegals are paid less than
documented workers or citizens is a problem. But what's the solution
to that problem from the farmer's perspective? A large portion of
independent farmers are in debt as opposed to raking in profits. Their
numbers dwindle. All that may be left over time is agri-business as a
serious market source for American produce but only after they move
their operations offshore where they'll be paying (You guessed it!) a
mere pittance to folks laboring in the fields. So you're seriously
suggesting we giveup farming and buy our produce entirely from another
country -- as in Mexico -- where farmworkers are paid less there than
they would be paid here?
Post by Carl Legner
I will continue buying MY apples at fruit stands and grocery stores
that buy their produce from Mexico where the apples are fresher, thinner
skins, and actually taste like apples. Best Washington Delicious apple I
have had in years came from a friend who came back from visiting his parents
in Mexico. It was grown in Sonora. Mexico.
The search for truth requires the courage to accept it.

NTReader v0.37w(P)/Beta (Registered) in conjunction with Net-Tamer.
Carl Legner
2004-06-28 21:33:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Walter Scott
What do you suggest, Carl, for farmers, not just those who own and
maintain apple orchards in Washington state? You mention the
"pittance" paid to illegals. The fact illegals are paid less than
documented workers or citizens is a problem. But what's the solution
to that problem from the farmer's perspective? A large portion of
independent farmers are in debt as opposed to raking in profits. Their
numbers dwindle. All that may be left over time is agri-business as a
serious market source for American produce but only after they move
their operations offshore where they'll be paying (You guessed it!) a
mere pittance to folks laboring in the fields. So you're seriously
suggesting we giveup farming and buy our produce entirely from another
country -- as in Mexico -- where farmworkers are paid less there than
they would be paid here?
Post by Carl Legner
I will continue buying MY apples at fruit stands and grocery stores
that buy their produce from Mexico where the apples are fresher, thinner
skins, and actually taste like apples. Best Washington Delicious apple I
have had in years came from a friend who came back from visiting his parents
in Mexico. It was grown in Sonora. Mexico.
You miss the major part of the argument to bring up the closing lines. They
are ILLEGALS! They are breaking the law every moment they are here. Fine.
You want them in Washington to pick your apples, then you supply their
living 12 months of the year, a place to live, a school, healthcare. We
don't want them wandering back into the sunshine in December.

You are like the guy who wants to stop forest fires by planting termites in
the wild.

Then use Ralph Nader's solution. Raise minimum wage so it is worthwhile for
Americans to work. If we want your apples, we will pay a few cents more for
them. I will say again, don't complain about how much the farmers can
charge for their apples when the quality of the apples they are selling us
are going down every year. The cheapest garbage in the world is still
garbage.
Walter Scott
2004-06-29 01:21:56 UTC
Permalink
Xref: number1.nntp.dca.giganews.com seattle.politics:403656 wash.politics:83748 az.general:187908 az.politics:89636


I don't miss that they're illegal, Carl. I disagree, though, that
consideration of the relevant problem(s) should stop there. Neither do
I believe that hermetically sealing off America to interdict illegals
is a proper solution. The solution lies somewhere in the reasons why
illegals want to enter the U.S. illegally and finding a way to
redirect that incentive.
Post by Carl Legner
You miss the major part of the argument to bring up the closing lines.
The search for truth requires the courage to accept it.

NTReader v0.37w(P)/Beta (Registered) in conjunction with Net-Tamer.
Carl Legner
2004-06-29 06:54:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Walter Scott
I don't miss that they're illegal, Carl. I disagree, though, that
consideration of the relevant problem(s) should stop there. Neither do
I believe that hermetically sealing off America to interdict illegals
is a proper solution. The solution lies somewhere in the reasons why
illegals want to enter the U.S. illegally and finding a way to
redirect that incentive.
You want them, you keep them. You mention California, Arizona, and New
Mexico. Add Texas, too. We have them here. They stay here. When picking
is over, we are stuck with them. They don't go home. They sleep in our
alleys, in our dumpsters, and in apartments with 20 or 30 people jammed in
together. They fill our emergency rooms, our welfare offices, our soup
kitchens, and our schools. They do not pay taxes because they are illegals
so they get paid under the table. They drive on our streets without
insurance in unsafe cars.

Why do we have this problem with the illegal alien population? Two reasons.
First, we are close to Mexico. The farmers invite them in to pick their
fruit. States like Washington, Oregon, Michigan, Minnisota, etc etc. use
them by the truckload. Then, snowfall and they all head to the warm
climates. We have them everywhere like an infestion of mosquitos. Hungry
for work, a place to live, and dignity. And you guys up there can close
your eyes and sleep knowing that you have rid of them for another 8 months
until you can USE them again.

Second reason is because the Mexican economy sucks! Maybe the problem would
better addressed if the stores started to buy the Mexican fruit so Mexican
workers can live and work at home. Maybe if they raised the prices to the
same as what we pay for Washington fruit, they could make a profit.

And don't expect us to feel sorry for the "independent farmer". The
blacksmiths are gone. Swallowed up by progress. So were the laundries,
milkmen, keypunch operators, switchboard workers, and telegraph operators.
If the small farmer cannot survive without artificially stacking the cards,
then maybe they should get out of the business and let the economies still
based on agriculture have at it.

You lied when you started this dialogue. You asked for comments and our
thoughts. You haven't heard a word. You were looking for a soapbox. You
don't have one in Arizona. Your soapbox is a coffin of an illegal alien who
died on the desert, coming up to pick your stinking apples. Maybe
Washington needs a few forest fires to show them the value of a tree...
Diamante No Áspero 11D
2004-06-29 07:54:46 UTC
Permalink
http://www13.pair.com/handman/tijuana.rm
Post by Carl Legner
Post by Walter Scott
I don't miss that they're illegal, Carl. I disagree, though, that
consideration of the relevant problem(s) should stop there. Neither do
I believe that hermetically sealing off America to interdict illegals
is a proper solution. The solution lies somewhere in the reasons why
illegals want to enter the U.S. illegally and finding a way to
redirect that incentive.
You want them, you keep them. You mention California, Arizona, and New
Mexico. Add Texas, too. We have them here. They stay here. When picking
is over, we are stuck with them. They don't go home. They sleep in our
alleys, in our dumpsters, and in apartments with 20 or 30 people jammed in
together. They fill our emergency rooms, our welfare offices, our soup
kitchens, and our schools. They do not pay taxes because they are illegals
so they get paid under the table. They drive on our streets without
insurance in unsafe cars.
Why do we have this problem with the illegal alien population? Two reasons.
First, we are close to Mexico. The farmers invite them in to pick their
fruit. States like Washington, Oregon, Michigan, Minnisota, etc etc. use
them by the truckload. Then, snowfall and they all head to the warm
climates. We have them everywhere like an infestion of mosquitos. Hungry
for work, a place to live, and dignity. And you guys up there can close
your eyes and sleep knowing that you have rid of them for another 8 months
until you can USE them again.
Second reason is because the Mexican economy sucks! Maybe the problem would
better addressed if the stores started to buy the Mexican fruit so Mexican
workers can live and work at home. Maybe if they raised the prices to the
same as what we pay for Washington fruit, they could make a profit.
And don't expect us to feel sorry for the "independent farmer". The
blacksmiths are gone. Swallowed up by progress. So were the laundries,
milkmen, keypunch operators, switchboard workers, and telegraph operators.
If the small farmer cannot survive without artificially stacking the cards,
then maybe they should get out of the business and let the economies still
based on agriculture have at it.
You lied when you started this dialogue. You asked for comments and our
thoughts. You haven't heard a word. You were looking for a soapbox. You
don't have one in Arizona. Your soapbox is a coffin of an illegal alien who
died on the desert, coming up to pick your stinking apples. Maybe
Washington needs a few forest fires to show them the value of a tree...
Walter Scott
2004-06-29 19:01:12 UTC
Permalink
Xref: number1.nntp.dca.giganews.com seattle.politics:404005 wash.politics:83809 az.general:187955 az.politics:89674


I don't believe you're being serious, Carl. I mean to say you're not
offering your real opinion, I suspect. That, in part, is demonstrated
by your continuing jabs at Washington apples and your suggestion that
Washington keep migrant workers year-round. What do you think Amnesty
would accomplish? The question is rhetorical insomuch as I believe you
know the answer all too well.

"Hungry for work?" Doesn't that say something important? Their "work"
is not paying for their presence in the U.S. -- including Arizona and
New Mexico? Are they taking American jobs or are they taking jobs that
Americans typically abandon? Who would harvest New Mexico's peanuts,
Carl? Would amnesty and open borders not determine that those who are
illegal now and who don't pay their fair share for hospital and
educational services might well document themselves and so pay in the
knowledge that they are not subject to summary deportation?

Migrant workers are here to WORK. KEYWORD: "WORK!"

They often perform the most disgusting tasks from which most us
shrink. You're going to haul life-threatening (or shortening) garbage,
cleanup someone's vomit and poop, tend someone's garden when it's 110
degrees in the shade, nanny someone's toddler day in and day out or
wash dishes in the hot and humid environment of a restaurant kitchen
from the time the restaurant opens for business until after the last
dinner plate is washed? You wouldn't do these things, would you, Carl?
Neither would most Americans. But these are jobs that must be done --
at least from the point of view of the employer and his/her customers.
Undocumented workers are happy to do them. Here I don't defend
that employers "pay under the table" or that many of these workers are
expected to do things and take risks that labor regulation and law
prohibits. But the point is that the workers -- those undocumented
workers against whom you rail -- are willing to do things and take
risks we will not. That shouldn't be forgotten.

Isn't it true that the quickest path to documenting the undocumented
is to declare amnesty? Isn't it true that the documented can then be
integrated into the system with all that entails -- employers who must
pay a decent wage as well as abide by labor laws, employees that must
get a driver's license and car insurance, employees that can seek
remedy for abuse from their employer and so on? You'll have your
American apples at a higher price than they are now. But nearly
everyone would be documented and integrated into the system. Yes; this
will make first-generation naturalized citizens quite angry -- they
who had to wait in their nation of birth for the opportunity to enter
America and then five years of hardship to establish themselves here,
including separation from family, until they attain citizenship. But
they should realize (1) there's a crucial difference themselves and
those who intend only to be "guest workers' rather than prospective
citizens, that (2) human existence is not experienced or traveled upon
a flat plane or without a fork in the road essential to some but not
others and that (3) their effort is not diminished by amnesty in that
they are here for the long haul under which they will receive benefits
so-called "guest workers" shall not.

Living that varies from one person to the next within a society is a
process. It is the way life is and must be accepted unless you would
have everyone be automotons who do everything in precisely the same
way having precisely the same priorities. Living life as an automoton,
where almost everyone else is equally an automoton, would be Huxley's
"Brave New World." I've never believed Huxley's fictitious World could
be real. But it seems it is this for which many people dream. That's
the World in which no-one can come to another country and work but as
a prospective citizen and only because they intend to stay -- to adopt
the place as their new home. In reality, this is not even what
the American business community would prefer from its foreign
employees.

Pickup a phone to call customer service at a major bank, a telephone
company or the producers of a major software package, and you may be
talking to someone in another country using broken English. That's
right; where employers can't hire work at lower cost to their bottom
line within the U.S., they're going offshore -- not where it's wet, by
the way, Captain Marvel -- to get what they need. So, if you'd blame
those who own and maintain apple orchards here in Washington state or
those who own and maintain vast fields of peanuts in New Mexico, you'd
have to blame many others in the general business community because,
in most cases, the only reason why employers use them is to improve
their bottom line and the only reason they don't use migrant workers
on U.S. soil is that such is not feasible. If it were feasible in the
latter instance, they'd go for it in a New York minute. In effect, you
don't have undocumented workers to rail against; you have much of
American culture to blame -- its priorities and needs.

As for your notion I lied when I started "this dialogue:" You're
wrong. I wanted and I still want to see input from folks in Arizona.
That does not mean nor should it mean that I would keep my opinions to
myself. I never stated I'd operate on that provision. It's rather
naive to expect someone to do that -- especially on USENET. If we're
having a "dialogue," that doesn't mean you're the only one who gets to
type and express an opinion here. That would be a "monologue." I can
learn from your perspective; you can learn from mine and anyone else
who pipes up.

Finally, don't treat Washington as though it is not subjected to an
influx of illegals twelve months a year. Seattle is a major port to
which people from Asia flock -- including illegals. We don't have
quite the traffic you do from the Mexican border. But we DO have a
steady and significant flow year-round. You have radio and TV in
Spanish. You also have communities where one should enter only if they
can speak Spanish. Here, we have the same but for Asian migrants. I
often get wrong-number phonecalls from people speaking an Asian
dialect and who can't understand a word of English.
Post by Carl Legner
Post by Walter Scott
I don't miss that they're illegal, Carl. I disagree, though, that
consideration of the relevant problem(s) should stop there. Neither do
I believe that hermetically sealing off America to interdict illegals
is a proper solution. The solution lies somewhere in the reasons why
illegals want to enter the U.S. illegally and finding a way to
redirect that incentive.
You want them, you keep them. You mention California, Arizona, and New
Mexico. Add Texas, too. We have them here. They stay here. When picking
is over, we are stuck with them. They don't go home. They sleep in our
alleys, in our dumpsters, and in apartments with 20 or 30 people jammed in
together. They fill our emergency rooms, our welfare offices, our soup
kitchens, and our schools. They do not pay taxes because they are illegals
so they get paid under the table. They drive on our streets without
insurance in unsafe cars.
Why do we have this problem with the illegal alien population? Two reasons.
First, we are close to Mexico. The farmers invite them in to pick their
fruit. States like Washington, Oregon, Michigan, Minnisota, etc etc. use
them by the truckload. Then, snowfall and they all head to the warm
climates. We have them everywhere like an infestion of mosquitos. Hungry
for work, a place to live, and dignity. And you guys up there can close
your eyes and sleep knowing that you have rid of them for another 8 months
until you can USE them again.
Second reason is because the Mexican economy sucks! Maybe the problem would
better addressed if the stores started to buy the Mexican fruit so Mexican
workers can live and work at home. Maybe if they raised the prices to the
same as what we pay for Washington fruit, they could make a profit.
And don't expect us to feel sorry for the "independent farmer". The
blacksmiths are gone. Swallowed up by progress. So were the laundries,
milkmen, keypunch operators, switchboard workers, and telegraph operators.
If the small farmer cannot survive without artificially stacking the cards,
then maybe they should get out of the business and let the economies still
based on agriculture have at it.
You lied when you started this dialogue. You asked for comments and our
thoughts. You haven't heard a word. You were looking for a soapbox. You
don't have one in Arizona. Your soapbox is a coffin of an illegal alien who
died on the desert, coming up to pick your stinking apples. Maybe
Washington needs a few forest fires to show them the value of a tree...
The search for truth requires the courage to accept it.

NTReader v0.37w(P)/Beta (Registered) in conjunction with Net-Tamer.
Walter Scott
2004-07-01 16:26:09 UTC
Permalink
When you write, Carl, that we should not "expect [you] to feel sorry
for the `independent farmer'" and note that "the blacksmiths are
gone, swallowed up by progress," you're obviously saying, without
elaboration or substantiation, that independent farmers are to be
dismissed from modern life. Can you back that one up -- that
independent farmers are now obsolete and must be assigned to the
dustbin of history? At the same time, can you tell me that you're
comfortable with Mexican produce, bearing in mind Mexico's health and
safety standards for their produce, along with sprawling American
agri-business as your only sources of produce?

Political truth is in the eye of the beholder more than is any other
form of truth, and it's usually spun like fine silk. Always beware.
Carl Legner
2004-07-01 17:15:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Walter Scott
When you write, Carl, that we should not "expect [you] to feel sorry
for the `independent farmer'" and note that "the blacksmiths are
gone, swallowed up by progress," you're obviously saying, without
elaboration or substantiation, that independent farmers are to be
dismissed from modern life. Can you back that one up -- that
independent farmers are now obsolete and must be assigned to the
dustbin of history? At the same time, can you tell me that you're
comfortable with Mexican produce, bearing in mind Mexico's health and
safety standards for their produce, along with sprawling American
agri-business as your only sources of produce?
What I am saying is that if, to keep the small independent farmer as a
viable group, we must utilize illegal aliens getting paid substandard pay
with no benefits so the small farmer can compete against the larger
corporate farms that use mechanized pickers and other moderized methods,
then maybe the small farmer in the US is no longer viable. That is not so
say that there is no place for the small farmer at all. Like the
blacksmith, there will always be a need for their services. People will
desire a more flavorful apple that the the corporate combine produces, a
quart of sweet blueberries, a red raspberry pie, or produce not grown with
chemicals or radiated for freshness. Particular folks will pay a prime
dollar to get these goods and this will guarentee that some farmers will and
should continue prosperously. To say that we need to allow the continuation
of a policy of turning a blind eye to illegals in our orchards is cruel to
both the workers and those who must support them with other services. My
arguement is not about the furtherence of the small independent farmer. I
hope they last forever but, if by taking advantage of people in need is the
only way that can happen, then the small farm should be allowed to die.

As far as Mexican produce, I eat it now. Maybe if we eat more of it, their
economy will begin to improve and there will be less of a reason for them to
have to cross the desert to pick fruit here.

The US farmers must learn to exist without using illegal aliens. Once these
aliens become legal, they will not accept the lower pay offered by the
farmers so they too will join the ranks of the unemployed and a whole new
crop of illegals will be required. The farmers should walk very softly.
The war against drugs began by trying to stop the flow of drugs from the
country of origin and the drugs as they crossed the border. When this
didn't work, they went after the users. If the farmers do not stop this
practice, they could end up like people possessing drugs. If you are found
with illegal drugs in your car, you lose your car. If you are found with
illegals picking your apples, you should lose your apples.
Walter Scott
2004-07-02 02:27:21 UTC
Permalink
Well, Carl, I agree with you in principle as to your notion that helping
Mexico may be a viable solution if not the only solution. But helping
them without hurting us may be easier said than done. Buying more
Mexican produce, for example, looks great as a strategy among
several. But the BIG PICTURE complicates the matter. Buying more from
them means we might be shooting the agricultural sector of our economy in
the foot. Add to that the fact our trade deficit with the World,
nevermind Mexico, is ALREADY in record territory. How do we do more
business with Mexico, as it relates to produce, while not doing damage
to our economy? For that matter, how do we give them a leg up in ANY
aspect of their economy that competes with ours absent some damage at
home?

I'm in favor of farmworkers getting a decent wage. I think amnesty
and documenting the undocumented will put us on he road to that goal.
But there's a dark side. We can't escape the economic fact of life
that the more farmers have to pay labor, the fewer of those farmers
there will be and/or the more expensive shall our produce be at the
grocery store. Look at what's happening to the price of milk, for
example. The reasons why there are fewer dairy farmers and dairy
farms are not what I point to rather than the impact of there being
fewer dairy farmers and fewer dairy farms. The same sort of exodus
for different reasons could happen in fruit and vegetable markets.
Ergo, we're talking about more than just a few pennies per pound of
produce. So, how we do this while hurting ourselves to the least
extent possible should be a part of the equation which is plugged
into the solution. Any thoughts? Are we apt to lose more by making
things right? That's to ask: Will we pay more by way of damage to our
economy and higher prices at the grocery store than the tax dollars
we'll save by documenting workers then paying them a decent wage and
having them pay their fair share for the public services they use?

Political truth is in the eye of the beholder more than is any other
form of truth, and it's usually spun like fine silk. Always beware.
Diamante No Áspero 11D
2004-06-29 07:55:43 UTC
Permalink
http://www13.pair.com/handman/tijuana.rm
Post by Walter Scott
I don't miss that they're illegal, Carl. I disagree, though, that
consideration of the relevant problem(s) should stop there. Neither do
I believe that hermetically sealing off America to interdict illegals
is a proper solution. The solution lies somewhere in the reasons why
illegals want to enter the U.S. illegally and finding a way to
redirect that incentive.
Post by Carl Legner
You miss the major part of the argument to bring up the closing lines.
The search for truth requires the courage to accept it.
NTReader v0.37w(P)/Beta (Registered) in conjunction with Net-Tamer.
Walter Scott
2004-06-29 19:01:14 UTC
Permalink
Xref: number1.nntp.dca.giganews.com seattle.politics:404006 wash.politics:83810 az.general:187956 az.politics:89675


Music to debate by?
Post by Diamante No Áspero 11D
http://www13.pair.com/handman/tijuana.rm
The search for truth requires the courage to accept it.

NTReader v0.37w(P)/Beta (Registered) in conjunction with Net-Tamer.
Diamante No Áspero 11D
2004-06-29 21:23:49 UTC
Permalink
You call this forum a debate forum?

hah!

I sure hope there's not a big line at the theater today.
Can't seem to get a seat for 'Fahrenheit 9/11' for some reason.



"Walter Scott" <***@A_SPECIFIED_PLACE.NOT> wrote in message news:cbse9o$8ln$***@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...

Music to debate by?
Post by Diamante No Áspero 11D
http://www13.pair.com/handman/tijuana.rm
Walter Scott
2004-06-29 22:44:59 UTC
Permalink
Xref: number1.nntp.dca.giganews.com seattle.politics:404098 wash.politics:83842 az.general:187961 az.politics:89699


It's a conspiracy......
Post by Diamante No Áspero 11D
You call this forum a debate forum?
hah!
I sure hope there's not a big line at the theater today.
Can't seem to get a seat for 'Fahrenheit 9/11' for some reason.
Music to debate by?
Post by Diamante No Áspero 11D
http://www13.pair.com/handman/tijuana.rm
The search for truth requires the courage to accept it.

NTReader v0.37w(P)/Beta (Registered) in conjunction with Net-Tamer.
Shaking my AZ Willie
2004-06-30 02:15:43 UTC
Permalink
"Walter Scott" <***@A_SPECIFIED_PLACE.NOT> wrote in message news:cbsrd9$i24$***@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...

It's a conspiracy......
Post by Diamante No Áspero 11D
You call this forum a debate forum?
hah!
I sure hope there's not a big line at the theater today.
Can't seem to get a seat for 'Fahrenheit 9/11' for some reason.
You need to get a job and buy tickets.
Walter Scott
2004-06-29 01:21:58 UTC
Permalink
You, Carl, are now in charge of convincing Congress to pass that
legislation and the President to sign it. I'll give you a snowball's
chance in Hell for success..... In the meantime, how about a
real-World, non-fairy-tale solution to the root problem?
Post by Carl Legner
Then use Ralph Nader's solution. Raise minimum wage so it is worthwhile
for Americans to work.
The search for truth requires the courage to accept it.

NTReader v0.37w(P)/Beta (Registered) in conjunction with Net-Tamer.
Walter Scott
2004-06-29 01:22:00 UTC
Permalink
Xref: number1.nntp.dca.giganews.com seattle.politics:403658 wash.politics:83750 az.general:187910 az.politics:89638


You really believe that, if Americans were paid what they'd consider a
decent wage for picking apples, the cost of apples at the grocery
store would only go up "a few cents more?" I'm highly doubtful of that
dreamland scenario.
If we want your apples, we will pay a few cents more.....
The search for truth requires the courage to accept it.

NTReader v0.37w(P)/Beta (Registered) in conjunction with Net-Tamer.
Walter Scott
2004-06-29 01:22:01 UTC
Permalink
Xref: number1.nntp.dca.giganews.com seattle.politics:403659 wash.politics:83751 az.general:187911 az.politics:89639


I get that you don't like Washington apples. What about California
oranges, avocados or grapes? How about New Mexico's peanuts?
Post by Carl Legner
I will say again, don't complain about how much the farmers can
charge for their apples when the quality of the apples they are selling us
are going down every year. The cheapest garbage in the world is still
garbage.
The search for truth requires the courage to accept it.

NTReader v0.37w(P)/Beta (Registered) in conjunction with Net-Tamer.
w.N.(Bill) McCaw
2004-06-29 13:49:59 UTC
Permalink
Carl Legner wrote:
snip, snip
Post by Carl Legner
Meanwhile, we will teach the immigant children to speak English, help their
parents assimilate so they won't want to work for your stinking pitance of a
apple-picking job so even more illegals will be required to do your crap
jobs. I will continue buying MY apples at fruit stands and grocery stores
that buy their produce from Mexico where the apples are fresher, thinner
skins, and actually taste like apples. Best Washington Delicious apple I
have had in years came from a friend who came back from visiting his parents
in Mexico. It was grown in Sonora. Mexico.
Arbuck
"My only prejudice is against people who use their brains for nothing more
that to keep the backs of their eyes warm."
It would seem to me that the latinos are just doing what most of our
ancestors did as they made their way across the sea to the land of
opportunity.

They fought, scrounged, and used any thing they could to keep a roof
over their heads and food on the table.

In truth, our country as we know it was built on their backs, as it is
being developed now on the backs of the immigrants.

If these folk are at the 15-20% level of the population in the USA, then
probably 115-20% of the work in the country is done by them. Most all
of the grunge work is done by them. Agriculture, hotel and restaurant
service work, nursing homes and hospital orderlies and janitorial, Etc. Etc.

Some of these will stay if given the chance to become citizens, some
will accumulate the money necessary to go back to their home country and
take over the farm or business they dream of.

In any case, they are not just sponges on our economy, they are earning
their keep.

Cheers! W.N.(Bill) McCaw
"The smallest dog can lift his leg on the tallest building." (Hightower)
Carl Legner
2004-06-29 15:54:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by w.N.(Bill) McCaw
snip, snip
Post by Carl Legner
Meanwhile, we will teach the immigant children to speak English, help their
parents assimilate so they won't want to work for your stinking pitance of a
apple-picking job so even more illegals will be required to do your crap
jobs. I will continue buying MY apples at fruit stands and grocery stores
that buy their produce from Mexico where the apples are fresher, thinner
skins, and actually taste like apples. Best Washington Delicious apple I
have had in years came from a friend who came back from visiting his parents
in Mexico. It was grown in Sonora. Mexico.
Arbuck
"My only prejudice is against people who use their brains for nothing more
that to keep the backs of their eyes warm."
It would seem to me that the latinos are just doing what most of our
ancestors did as they made their way across the sea to the land of
opportunity.
They fought, scrounged, and used any thing they could to keep a roof
over their heads and food on the table.
In truth, our country as we know it was built on their backs, as it is
being developed now on the backs of the immigrants.
If these folk are at the 15-20% level of the population in the USA, then
probably 115-20% of the work in the country is done by them. Most all
of the grunge work is done by them. Agriculture, hotel and restaurant
service work, nursing homes and hospital orderlies and janitorial, Etc. Etc.
Some of these will stay if given the chance to become citizens, some
will accumulate the money necessary to go back to their home country and
take over the farm or business they dream of.
In any case, they are not just sponges on our economy, they are earning
their keep.
Cheers! W.N.(Bill) McCaw
"The smallest dog can lift his leg on the tallest building." (Hightower)
Then, using your warped logic, it would socially acceptable for me to rob a
Circle K if my family is hungry, to pick your pocket to buy that little farm
I can't afford to buy, or to break into your house while you are away
because my life is just so pathetic.

Tell you what, I will pass your invitation on to Sheriff Joe and tell him
about your invitation. Calling the INS is a waste of time but we can give
these illegals a one way ticket to Tacoma. Say "hello" to Washington, Juan,
Pedro, and your 5 million other hungry friends! Turn Seattle into a wet
Tiajuana.

Make sure you have lots of refrieds at the homeless shelter, Bill!

I have nothing agains Mexicans and legal immigrants. I do have something
against Mexican government officials that tell the US that we have an
imigration problem, American officials that say "if you break the law long
enough-we will make you legal, and selfish bastards like yourself who think
that for their own little corner of the world, the rest of us must bend
over, spread 'em and wait for the next semi-load of fruit flies.

"Snarling" Carl
Walter Scott
2004-06-29 20:23:06 UTC
Permalink
Xref: number1.nntp.dca.giganews.com seattle.politics:404048 wash.politics:83829 az.general:187958 az.politics:89687


Don't forget those "selfish bastards" in New Mexico running peanut
farms.... ;-)
Post by Carl Legner
I have nothing agains Mexicans and legal immigrants. I do have something
against Mexican government officials that tell the US that we have an
imigration problem, American officials that say "if you break the law long
enough-we will make you legal, and selfish bastards like yourself who think
that for their own little corner of the world, the rest of us must bend
over, spread 'em and wait for the next semi-load of fruit flies.
The search for truth requires the courage to accept it.

NTReader v0.37w(P)/Beta (Registered) in conjunction with Net-Tamer.
Walter Scott
2004-07-01 16:26:14 UTC
Permalink
Bill McCaw argues that Mexicans "are not just sponges on our economy;
they are earning their keep." You, Carl, argue in reply that,
according to Bill's "warped logic," it would be "socially acceptable"
for someone to "rob a Circle K" if their family is hungry -- thereby
picking society's pocket -- "to buy that little farm." Since when
does working for wages -- less than most Americans make and over a
longer work week than most Americans endure -- equate to "robbing?"
Please make your best case for this analogy or equation. And again,
would not amnesty bring undocumented workers to document themselves,
obtain a driver's license plus car insurance and etcetera?

Political truth is in the eye of the beholder more than is any other
form of truth, and it's usually spun like fine silk. Always beware.
Carl Legner
2004-07-01 17:32:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Walter Scott
Bill McCaw argues that Mexicans "are not just sponges on our economy;
they are earning their keep." You, Carl, argue in reply that,
according to Bill's "warped logic," it would be "socially acceptable"
for someone to "rob a Circle K" if their family is hungry -- thereby
picking society's pocket -- "to buy that little farm." Since when
does working for wages -- less than most Americans make and over a
longer work week than most Americans endure -- equate to "robbing?"
Please make your best case for this analogy or equation. And again,
would not amnesty bring undocumented workers to document themselves,
obtain a driver's license plus car insurance and etcetera?
Political truth is in the eye of the beholder more than is any other
form of truth, and it's usually spun like fine silk. Always beware.
An illegal alien is just that: illegal. To say that it is ok that they are
illegal because they are hungry, is wrong. The problem is that Mexican
people are hungry. That is the problem that must be fixed. Having them
break into our country to pick OUR food is inane. We should be helping them
grow their own, grow some extra, and sell it to us.
And, Walter, I am more than happy to relax the requirements for entry and
allow more legal migrant workers in to pick apples, peanuts, or whatever.
BUT, they must have driver's licenses if they are to drive, insurance, pay
taxes, and recieve enough benefits of some form that when they need medical
care, housing, board, etc while here, the US taxpayer, local, county, and
state, do not have to pick up the tab. The workers must be paid at the same
rate a person from the US would get paid if they wanted to do it: minimum
wage. If you can't pay minimum wage, take out taxes, and have worker's
comp, you should not be allowed to use the migrant workers. What difference
does it make if I send all the jobs offshore to another country or I bring
in illegal aliens from another country to do the work here? One major
difference: illegals greatly add to our working poor.
Walter Scott
2004-07-02 02:27:14 UTC
Permalink
So, in other words, Carl, you're saying you'd accept an Amnesty
program, provided the limits you expressed below? If yes, then you and
I can move on to other issues within this topic.

On 2004-07-01 "Carl Legner" <***@Cox.net> said:

|-> And, Walter, I am more than happy to relax the requirements for
|-> entry and allow more legal migrant workers in to pick apples,
|-> peanuts, or whatever. BUT, they must have driver's licenses
|-> if they are to drive, insurance, pay taxes, and recieve
|-> enough benefits of some form that when they need medical care,
|-> housing, board, etc while here, the US taxpayer, local, county, and
|-> state, do not have to pick up the tab.

Political truth is in the eye of the beholder more than is any other
form of truth, and it's usually spun like fine silk. Always beware.
Walter Scott
2004-07-01 16:26:05 UTC
Permalink
You contend, Bill McCaw, that, in regard to Latinos, "our country as
we know it was built on their backs." Could and would you elaborate
on this point? If yes, please do.

Political truth is in the eye of the beholder more than is any other
form of truth, and it's usually spun like fine silk. Always beware.
w.N.(Bill) McCaw
2004-07-02 13:52:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Walter Scott
You contend, Bill McCaw, that, in regard to Latinos, "our country as
we know it was built on their backs." Could and would you elaborate
on this point? If yes, please do.
I failed to convey the thought that our country was built on the back of
the European immigrants, the Irish, the Germans, the Poles, Etc.

Now We are maintaining it on the backs of the Latinos.

Cheers! W.N.(Bill) McCaw
"The smallest dog can lift his leg on the tallest building" (Hightower)
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