Discussion:
bush skipped a medical exam
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Transition Zone
2004-09-21 05:02:21 UTC
Permalink
'Why Bush Left Texas' by Russ Baker (The Nation)

Growing evidence suggests that George W. Bush abruptly left his Texas
Air National Guard unit in 1972 for substantive reasons pertaining to
his inability to continue piloting a fighter jet.

A months-long investigation, which includes examination of hundreds of
government-released documents, interviews with former Guard members
and officials, military experts and Bush associates, points toward the
conclusion that Bush's personal behavior was causing alarm among his
superior officers and would ultimately lead to his fleeing the state
to avoid a physical exam he might have had difficulty passing. His
failure to complete a physical exam became the official reason for his
subsequent suspension from flying status.

This central issue, whether Bush did or did not complete his duty--and
if not, why--has in recent days been obscured by a raging sideshow: a
debate over the accuracy of documents aired on CBS's 60 Minutes. Last
week CBS News reported on newly unearthed memos purportedly prepared
by Bush's now-deceased commanding officer. In those documents, the
officer, Lieut. Col. Jerry Killian, appeared to be establishing for
the record events occurring at the time Bush abruptly left his Texas
Air National Guard unit in May 1972. Among these: that Bush had failed
to meet unspecified Guard standards and refused a direct order to take
a physical exam, and that pressure was being applied on Killian and
his superiors to whitewash whatever troubling circumstances Bush was
in.

Questions have been raised about the authenticity of those memos, but
the criticism of them appears at this time speculative and
inconclusive, while their substance is consistent with a growing body
of documentation and analysis.

If it is demonstrated that profound behavioral problems marred Bush's
wartime performance and even cut short his service, it could seriously
challenge Bush's essential appeal as a military steward and guardian
of societal values. It could also explain the incomplete,
contradictory and shifting explanations provided by the Bush camp for
the President's striking invisibility from the military during the
final two years of his six-year military obligation. And it would
explain the savagery and rapidity of the attack on the CBS documents.

In 1972 Bush's unit activities underwent a change that could point to
a degradation of his ability to fly a fighter jet. Last week, in
response to a lawsuit, the White House released to the Associated
Press Bush's flight logs, which show that he abruptly shifted his
emphasis in February and March 1972 from his assigned F-102A fighter
jet to a two-seat T-33 training jet, from which he had graduated
several years earlier, and was put back onto a flight simulator. The
logs also show that on two occasions he required multiple attempts to
land a one-seat fighter and a fighter simulator. This after Bush had
already logged more than 200 hours in the one-seat F-102A.

Military experts say that his new, apparently downgraded and
accompanied training mode, which included Bush's sometimes moving into
the co-pilot's seat, can, in theory, be explained a variety of ways.
He could, for example, have been training for a new position that
might involve carrying student pilots. But the reality is that Bush
himself has never mentioned this chapter in his life, nor has he
provided a credible explanation. In addition, Bush's highly detailed
Officer Effectiveness Reports make no mention of this rather dramatic
change.

A White House spokesman explained to AP that the heavy training in
this more elementary capacity came at a time when Bush was trying to
generate more hours in anticipation of a six-month leave to work on a
political campaign. But, in fact, this scenario is implausible. For
one thing, Guard regulations did not permit him to log additional
hours in that manner as a substitute for missing six months of duty
later on. As significantly, there is no sign that Bush even considered
going to work on that campaign until shortly before he departed--nor
that campaign officials had any inkling at all that Bush might join
them in several months' time.

Bush told his commanding officers that he was going to Alabama for an
opportunity with a political campaign. (His Texas Air National Guard
supervisors--presumably relying on what Bush told them--would write in
a report the following year, "A civilian occupation made it necessary
for him to move to Montgomery, Alabama.") But the timing of Bush's
decision to leave and his departure--about the same time that he
failed to take a mandatory annual physical exam--indicate that the two
may have been related.

Campaign staff members say they knew nothing of Bush's interest in
participating until days before he arrived in Montgomery. Indeed, not
one of numerous Bush friends from those days even recalls Bush talking
about going to Alabama at any point before he took off.

Bush's behavior in Alabama suggests that he viewed Alabama not as an
important career opportunity but as a kind of necessary evil.

Although his role in the campaign has been represented as substantial
(in some newspaper accounts, he has been described as the assistant
campaign manager), numerous campaign staffers say Bush's role was
negligible, low level and that he routinely arrived at the campaign
offices in the afternoon hours, bragging of drinking feats from the
night before.

According to friends of his, he kept his Houston apartment during this
period and, based on their recollections, may have been coming back
into town repeatedly during the time he was supposedly working
full-time on the Alabama campaign. Absences from the campaign have
been explained as due to his responsibilities to travel to the further
reaches of Alabama, but several staffers told me that organizing those
counties was not Bush's de facto responsibility.

Even more significantly, in a July interview, Linda Allison, the widow
of Jimmy Allison, the Alabama campaign manager and a close friend of
Bush's father, revealed to me for the first time that Bush had come to
Alabama not because the job had appeal or because his presence was
required but because he needed to get out of Texas. "Well, you have to
know Georgie," Allison said. "He really was a totally irresponsible
person. Big George [George H.W. Bush] called Jimmy, and said, he's
killing us in Houston, take him down there and let him work on that
campaign.... The tenor of that was, Georgie is in and out of trouble
seven days a week down here, and would you take him up there with
you."

Allison said that the younger Bush's drinking problem was apparent.
She also said that her husband, a circumspect man who did not gossip
and held his cards closely, indicated to her that some use of drugs
was involved. "I had the impression that he knew that Georgie was
using pot, certainly, and perhaps cocaine," she said.

Now-prominent, established Texas figures in the military, arts,
business and political worlds, some of them Republicans and Bush
supporters, talk about Bush's alleged use of marijuana and cocaine
based on what they say they have heard from trusted friends. One
middle-aged woman whose general veracity could be confirmed told me
that she met Bush in 1968 at Hemisfair 68, a fair in San Antonio, at
which he tried to pick her up and offered her a white powder he was
inhaling. She was then a teenager; Bush would have just graduated from
Yale and have been starting the National Guard then. "He was getting
really aggressive with me," she said. "I told him I'd call a
policeman, and he laughed, and asked who would believe me." (Although
cocaine was not a widespread phenomenon until the 1970s, US
authorities were struggling more than a decade earlier to stanch the
flow from Latin America; in 1967 border seizures amounted to
twenty-six pounds.)

Bush himself has publicly admitted to being somewhat wild in his
younger years, without offering any details. He has not explicitly
denied charges of drug use; generally he has hedged. He has said that
he could have passed the same security screening his father underwent
upon his inauguration in 1989, which certifies no illegal drug use
during the fifteen preceding years. In other words, George W. Bush
seemed to be saying that if he had used drugs, that was before 1974 or
during the period in which he left his Guard unit.

The family that rented Bush a house in Montgomery, Alabama, during
that period told me that Bush did extensive, inexplicable damage to
their property, including smashing a chandelier, and that they
unsuccessfully billed him twice for the damage--which amounted to
approximately $900, a considerable sum in 1972. Two unconnected close
friends and acquaintances of a well-known Montgomery socialite, now
deceased, told me that the socialite in question told them that he and
Bush had been partying that evening at the Montgomery Country Club,
combining drinking with use of illicit drugs, and that Bush,
complaining about the brightness, had climbed on a table and smashed
the chandelier when the duo stopped at his home briefly so Bush could
change clothes before they headed out again.

It is notable that in 1972, the military was in the process of
introducing widespread drug testing as part of the annual physical
exams that pilots would undergo.

For years, military buffs and retired officers have speculated about
the real reasons that Bush left his unit two years before his flying
obligation was up. Bush and his staff have muddied the issue by not
providing a clear, comprehensive and consistent explanation of his
departure from the unit. And, peculiarly, the President has not made
himself available to describe in detail what did take place at that
time. Instead, the White House has adopted a policy of offering
obscure explanations by officials who clearly do not know the
specifics of what went on, and the periodic release of large numbers
of confusing or inconclusive documents--particularly at the start of
weekends and holiday periods, when attention is elsewhere.

In addition, the Bush camp has offered over the past few years a
shifting panoply of explanations that subsequently failed to pass
muster. One was that Bush had stopped flying his F-102A jet because it
was being phased out (the plane continued to be used for at least
another year). Another explanation was that he failed to take his
physical exam in 1972 because his family doctor was unavailable.
(Guard regulations require that physicals be conducted by doctors on
the base, and would have been easily arranged either on a base in
Texas or, after he left the state, in Alabama.)

One of the difficulties in getting to the truth about what really took
place during this period is the frequently expressed fear of
retribution from the Bush organization. Many sources refuse to speak
on the record, or even to have their knowledge communicated publicly
in any way. One source who did publicly evince doubts about Bush's
activities in 1972 was Dean Roome, who flew formations often with Bush
and was his roommate for a time. "You wonder if you know who George
Bush is," Roome told USA Today in a little-appreciated interview back
in 2002. "I think he digressed after awhile," he said. "In the first
half, he was gung-ho. Where George failed was to fulfill his
obligation as a pilot. It was an irrational time in his life." Yet in
subsequent years, Roome has revised his comments to a firm insistence
that nothing out of the ordinary took place at that time, and after
one interview he e-mailed me material raising questions about John
Kerry's military career. Roome, who operates a curio shop in a Texas
hamlet, told me that Bush aides, including communications adviser
Karen Hughes, and even the President himself stay in touch with him.

Several Bush associates from that period say that the Bush camp has
argued strenuously about the importance of sources backing the
President up on his military service, citing patriotism, personal
loyalty and even the claim that he lacks friends in Washington and
must count on those from early in his life.

In 1971 Bush took his annual physical exam in May. It's reasonable to
conclude that he would also take his 1972 physical in the same month.
Yet according to official Guard documents, Bush "cleared the base" on
May 15 without doing so. Fellow Guard members uniformly agree that
Bush should and could have easily taken the exam with unit doctors at
Ellington Air Force Base before leaving town. (It is interesting to
note that if the Killian memos released by CBS do hold up, one of
them, dated May 4, 1972, orders Bush to report for his physical by May
14--one day before he took off.)

Bush has indicated that he departed from Ellington Air Force Base and
his Guard unit because he had been offered an important employment
opportunity with a political campaign in Alabama. The overwhelming
evidence suggests, however, that the Alabama campaign was a convenient
excuse for Bush to rapidly exit stage left from a Guard unit that
found him and his behavior a growing problem. If that's not the case,
now would be an excellent time for a President famed for his
superlative memory to sit down and explain what really happened in
that period.

http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20040927&s=baker
Sam Lewis
2004-09-21 11:03:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Transition Zone
'Why Bush Left Texas' by Russ Baker (The Nation)
Growing evidence suggests that George W. Bush abruptly left his Texas
Air National Guard unit in 1972 for substantive reasons pertaining to
his inability to continue piloting a fighter jet.
A months-long investigation, which includes examination of hundreds of
government-released documents, interviews with former Guard members
and officials, military experts and Bush associates, points toward the
conclusion that Bush's personal behavior was causing alarm among his
superior officers and would ultimately lead to his fleeing the state
to avoid a physical exam he might have had difficulty passing. His
failure to complete a physical exam became the official reason for his
subsequent suspension from flying status.
This central issue, whether Bush did or did not complete his duty--and
if not, why--has in recent days been obscured by a raging sideshow: a
debate over the accuracy of documents aired on CBS's 60 Minutes. Last
week CBS News reported on newly unearthed memos purportedly prepared
by Bush's now-deceased commanding officer. In those documents, the
officer, Lieut. Col. Jerry Killian, appeared to be establishing for
the record events occurring at the time Bush abruptly left his Texas
Air National Guard unit in May 1972. Among these: that Bush had failed
to meet unspecified Guard standards and refused a direct order to take
a physical exam, and that pressure was being applied on Killian and
his superiors to whitewash whatever troubling circumstances Bush was
in.
Questions have been raised about the authenticity of those memos, but
the criticism of them appears at this time speculative and
inconclusive, while their substance is consistent with a growing body
of documentation and analysis.
If it is demonstrated that profound behavioral problems marred Bush's
wartime performance and even cut short his service, it could seriously
challenge Bush's essential appeal as a military steward and guardian
of societal values. It could also explain the incomplete,
contradictory and shifting explanations provided by the Bush camp for
the President's striking invisibility from the military during the
final two years of his six-year military obligation. And it would
explain the savagery and rapidity of the attack on the CBS documents.
In 1972 Bush's unit activities underwent a change that could point to
a degradation of his ability to fly a fighter jet. Last week, in
response to a lawsuit, the White House released to the Associated
Press Bush's flight logs, which show that he abruptly shifted his
emphasis in February and March 1972 from his assigned F-102A fighter
jet to a two-seat T-33 training jet, from which he had graduated
several years earlier, and was put back onto a flight simulator. The
logs also show that on two occasions he required multiple attempts to
land a one-seat fighter and a fighter simulator. This after Bush had
already logged more than 200 hours in the one-seat F-102A.
Military experts say that his new, apparently downgraded and
accompanied training mode, which included Bush's sometimes moving into
the co-pilot's seat, can, in theory, be explained a variety of ways.
He could, for example, have been training for a new position that
might involve carrying student pilots. But the reality is that Bush
himself has never mentioned this chapter in his life, nor has he
provided a credible explanation. In addition, Bush's highly detailed
Officer Effectiveness Reports make no mention of this rather dramatic
change.
A White House spokesman explained to AP that the heavy training in
this more elementary capacity came at a time when Bush was trying to
generate more hours in anticipation of a six-month leave to work on a
political campaign. But, in fact, this scenario is implausible. For
one thing, Guard regulations did not permit him to log additional
hours in that manner as a substitute for missing six months of duty
later on. As significantly, there is no sign that Bush even considered
going to work on that campaign until shortly before he departed--nor
that campaign officials had any inkling at all that Bush might join
them in several months' time.
Bush told his commanding officers that he was going to Alabama for an
opportunity with a political campaign. (His Texas Air National Guard
supervisors--presumably relying on what Bush told them--would write in
a report the following year, "A civilian occupation made it necessary
for him to move to Montgomery, Alabama.") But the timing of Bush's
decision to leave and his departure--about the same time that he
failed to take a mandatory annual physical exam--indicate that the two
may have been related.
Campaign staff members say they knew nothing of Bush's interest in
participating until days before he arrived in Montgomery. Indeed, not
one of numerous Bush friends from those days even recalls Bush talking
about going to Alabama at any point before he took off.
Bush's behavior in Alabama suggests that he viewed Alabama not as an
important career opportunity but as a kind of necessary evil.
Although his role in the campaign has been represented as substantial
(in some newspaper accounts, he has been described as the assistant
campaign manager), numerous campaign staffers say Bush's role was
negligible, low level and that he routinely arrived at the campaign
offices in the afternoon hours, bragging of drinking feats from the
night before.
According to friends of his, he kept his Houston apartment during this
period and, based on their recollections, may have been coming back
into town repeatedly during the time he was supposedly working
full-time on the Alabama campaign. Absences from the campaign have
been explained as due to his responsibilities to travel to the further
reaches of Alabama, but several staffers told me that organizing those
counties was not Bush's de facto responsibility.
Even more significantly, in a July interview, Linda Allison, the widow
of Jimmy Allison, the Alabama campaign manager and a close friend of
Bush's father, revealed to me for the first time that Bush had come to
Alabama not because the job had appeal or because his presence was
required but because he needed to get out of Texas. "Well, you have to
know Georgie," Allison said. "He really was a totally irresponsible
person. Big George [George H.W. Bush] called Jimmy, and said, he's
killing us in Houston, take him down there and let him work on that
campaign.... The tenor of that was, Georgie is in and out of trouble
seven days a week down here, and would you take him up there with
you."
Allison said that the younger Bush's drinking problem was apparent.
She also said that her husband, a circumspect man who did not gossip
and held his cards closely, indicated to her that some use of drugs
was involved. "I had the impression that he knew that Georgie was
using pot, certainly, and perhaps cocaine," she said.
Now-prominent, established Texas figures in the military, arts,
business and political worlds, some of them Republicans and Bush
supporters, talk about Bush's alleged use of marijuana and cocaine
based on what they say they have heard from trusted friends. One
middle-aged woman whose general veracity could be confirmed told me
that she met Bush in 1968 at Hemisfair 68, a fair in San Antonio, at
which he tried to pick her up and offered her a white powder he was
inhaling. She was then a teenager; Bush would have just graduated from
Yale and have been starting the National Guard then. "He was getting
really aggressive with me," she said. "I told him I'd call a
policeman, and he laughed, and asked who would believe me." (Although
cocaine was not a widespread phenomenon until the 1970s, US
authorities were struggling more than a decade earlier to stanch the
flow from Latin America; in 1967 border seizures amounted to
twenty-six pounds.)
Bush himself has publicly admitted to being somewhat wild in his
younger years, without offering any details. He has not explicitly
denied charges of drug use; generally he has hedged. He has said that
he could have passed the same security screening his father underwent
upon his inauguration in 1989, which certifies no illegal drug use
during the fifteen preceding years. In other words, George W. Bush
seemed to be saying that if he had used drugs, that was before 1974 or
during the period in which he left his Guard unit.
The family that rented Bush a house in Montgomery, Alabama, during
that period told me that Bush did extensive, inexplicable damage to
their property, including smashing a chandelier, and that they
unsuccessfully billed him twice for the damage--which amounted to
approximately $900, a considerable sum in 1972. Two unconnected close
friends and acquaintances of a well-known Montgomery socialite, now
deceased, told me that the socialite in question told them that he and
Bush had been partying that evening at the Montgomery Country Club,
combining drinking with use of illicit drugs, and that Bush,
complaining about the brightness, had climbed on a table and smashed
the chandelier when the duo stopped at his home briefly so Bush could
change clothes before they headed out again.
It is notable that in 1972, the military was in the process of
introducing widespread drug testing as part of the annual physical
exams that pilots would undergo.
For years, military buffs and retired officers have speculated about
the real reasons that Bush left his unit two years before his flying
obligation was up. Bush and his staff have muddied the issue by not
providing a clear, comprehensive and consistent explanation of his
departure from the unit. And, peculiarly, the President has not made
himself available to describe in detail what did take place at that
time. Instead, the White House has adopted a policy of offering
obscure explanations by officials who clearly do not know the
specifics of what went on, and the periodic release of large numbers
of confusing or inconclusive documents--particularly at the start of
weekends and holiday periods, when attention is elsewhere.
In addition, the Bush camp has offered over the past few years a
shifting panoply of explanations that subsequently failed to pass
muster. One was that Bush had stopped flying his F-102A jet because it
was being phased out (the plane continued to be used for at least
another year). Another explanation was that he failed to take his
physical exam in 1972 because his family doctor was unavailable.
(Guard regulations require that physicals be conducted by doctors on
the base, and would have been easily arranged either on a base in
Texas or, after he left the state, in Alabama.)
One of the difficulties in getting to the truth about what really took
place during this period is the frequently expressed fear of
retribution from the Bush organization. Many sources refuse to speak
on the record, or even to have their knowledge communicated publicly
in any way. One source who did publicly evince doubts about Bush's
activities in 1972 was Dean Roome, who flew formations often with Bush
and was his roommate for a time. "You wonder if you know who George
Bush is," Roome told USA Today in a little-appreciated interview back
in 2002. "I think he digressed after awhile," he said. "In the first
half, he was gung-ho. Where George failed was to fulfill his
obligation as a pilot. It was an irrational time in his life." Yet in
subsequent years, Roome has revised his comments to a firm insistence
that nothing out of the ordinary took place at that time, and after
one interview he e-mailed me material raising questions about John
Kerry's military career. Roome, who operates a curio shop in a Texas
hamlet, told me that Bush aides, including communications adviser
Karen Hughes, and even the President himself stay in touch with him.
Several Bush associates from that period say that the Bush camp has
argued strenuously about the importance of sources backing the
President up on his military service, citing patriotism, personal
loyalty and even the claim that he lacks friends in Washington and
must count on those from early in his life.
In 1971 Bush took his annual physical exam in May. It's reasonable to
conclude that he would also take his 1972 physical in the same month.
Yet according to official Guard documents, Bush "cleared the base" on
May 15 without doing so. Fellow Guard members uniformly agree that
Bush should and could have easily taken the exam with unit doctors at
Ellington Air Force Base before leaving town. (It is interesting to
note that if the Killian memos released by CBS do hold up, one of
them, dated May 4, 1972, orders Bush to report for his physical by May
14--one day before he took off.)
Bush has indicated that he departed from Ellington Air Force Base and
his Guard unit because he had been offered an important employment
opportunity with a political campaign in Alabama. The overwhelming
evidence suggests, however, that the Alabama campaign was a convenient
excuse for Bush to rapidly exit stage left from a Guard unit that
found him and his behavior a growing problem. If that's not the case,
now would be an excellent time for a President famed for his
superlative memory to sit down and explain what really happened in
that period.
http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20040927&s=baker
ibm
2004-09-21 17:28:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Transition Zone
'Why Bush Left Texas' by Russ Baker (The Nation)
Growing evidence suggests that George W. Bush abruptly left his Texas
Air National Guard unit in 1972 for substantive reasons pertaining to
his inability to continue piloting a fighter jet.
[snip]

The only growing evidence is the length of Dan Rather's
nose.
He and CBS got conned by a whack job.
Get used to this meme it isn't going away.

And the day The Nation can be taken as authoritative on
anything rational is going to be a very cold dark one in
the nether regions.


_______________________________________________________________________________
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az-willie
2004-09-21 17:43:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by ibm
Post by Transition Zone
'Why Bush Left Texas' by Russ Baker (The Nation)
Growing evidence suggests that George W. Bush abruptly left his Texas
Air National Guard unit in 1972 for substantive reasons pertaining to
his inability to continue piloting a fighter jet.
[snip]
The only growing evidence is the length of Dan Rather's
nose.
He and CBS got conned by a whack job.
Get used to this meme it isn't going away.
And the day The Nation can be taken as authoritative on
anything rational is going to be a very cold dark one in
the nether regions.
==========
I wonder why the right wingers don't make such a fuss when Limbaugh gets
caught telling an untruth ( which has happened many times).

Or when he makes statements that drug users should go to prison for long
stretches then gets caught with a bunch of illegal drugs himself.

That doesn't bother right wingers one little bit. Right wing lies and
hypocracy are ok because they further their agenda.
--
Truth to a right winger is like the sun to a werewolf.
ian maclure
2004-09-21 18:08:37 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 10:43:26 -0700, az-willie wrote:

[snip]
Post by az-willie
I wonder why the right wingers don't make such a fuss when Limbaugh gets
caught telling an untruth ( which has happened many times).
I don't listen to Limbaugh so how would I know what he's saying?
Post by az-willie
Or when he makes statements that drug users should go to prison for long
stretches then gets caught with a bunch of illegal drugs himself.
Nuance. There is a small difference between illicit recreational
pharmaceutical usage and addiction to pain killers. Not nice in
either case but the second less heinous than the first.
Post by az-willie
That doesn't bother right wingers one little bit. Right wing lies and
hypocracy are ok because they further their agenda.
Nope, thats the Dhimmicreep way and you are projecting.

IBM

_______________________________________________________________________________
Posted Via Uncensored-News.Com - Accounts Starting At $6.95 - http://www.uncensored-news.com
<><><><><><><> The Worlds Uncensored News Source <><><><><><><><>
paul
2004-09-21 18:14:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by az-willie
I wonder why the right wingers don't make such a fuss when Limbaugh gets
caught telling an untruth ( which has happened many times).
Limbaugh is an entertainer, and nothing more. He is the Barbara Striesand of
the republican party. And while we are on the subject of parties taking on
their own Kooks, When was the last time any dem addressed the Jane Fonda
issue.

Oh, thats right. You dems addressed the Jane Fonda issue (treason) by
picking her poisonous backstabbing partner in treason to run for president.

Limbaugh is NOT an issue, asshole. he's just a commentater; an entertainer
at best. Think of James Carville maybe. He don't seem to know the truth
either.

paul
mesa az
Post by az-willie
Post by ibm
Post by Transition Zone
'Why Bush Left Texas' by Russ Baker (The Nation)
Growing evidence suggests that George W. Bush abruptly left his Texas
Air National Guard unit in 1972 for substantive reasons pertaining to
his inability to continue piloting a fighter jet.
[snip]
The only growing evidence is the length of Dan Rather's
nose.
He and CBS got conned by a whack job.
Get used to this meme it isn't going away.
And the day The Nation can be taken as authoritative on
anything rational is going to be a very cold dark one in
the nether regions.
==========
I wonder why the right wingers don't make such a fuss when Limbaugh gets
caught telling an untruth ( which has happened many times).
Or when he makes statements that drug users should go to prison for long
stretches then gets caught with a bunch of illegal drugs himself.
That doesn't bother right wingers one little bit. Right wing lies and
hypocracy are ok because they further their agenda.
--
Truth to a right winger is like the sun to a werewolf.
Serious Sam
2004-09-21 18:47:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by paul
Oh, thats right. You dems addressed the Jane Fonda issue (treason) by
picking her poisonous backstabbing partner in treason to run for president.
Amen!

http://ice.he.net/~freepnet/kerry/index.php?topic=Timeline

June, 1970 -- Kerry joins Vietnam Veterans Against the War (VVAW), a
national veterans group that is part of the Peoples Coalition for Peace
and Justice. The PCPJ is a broad coalition of local and national
organizations, including the Communist Party, USA, "committed to
conducting demonstrations aimed at ending the war in Indochina, and
poverty, racism and injustice at home." The VVAW, CCI and PCPJ all have
headquarters at 156 Fifth Avenue in New York City. VVAW Executive
Secretary Al Hubbard, a former Black Panther, is also on the
coordinating committee of the PCPJ. Hubbard soon appoints Kerry to the
VVAW's Executive Committee, bypassing the normal election process.

September 7, 1970 -- At the conclusion of Operation RAW, a rally is held
in Valley Forge, featuring speeches by John Kerry, Jane Fonda, and Mark
Lane. Fonda is quoted as saying that "...My Lai was not an isolated
incident but rather a way of life for many of our military."

September 11, 1970 -- A VVAW Executive Committee meeting is attended by
president Jan Crumb, executive secretary Al Hubbard, treasurer Jason
Gettinger, Northeast representative John Kerry, and three others. The
organization leadership decides to picket against the National Guard
Association in New York, send Hubbard on a "speaking tour" with Jane
Fonda, consider an "appropriate induction center action for purpose of
making clear transition from citizen to war criminal," and "sponsor turn
in of war crimes testimony to UN" after the Winter Soldier event.

November 22, 1970 -- During a fund-raising tour for GI deserters,
Vietnam Veterans Against the War and the Black Panthers, Jane Fonda is
quoted in the Detroit Free Press as telling a University of Michigan
audience, "I would think that if you understood what communism was, you
would hope, you would pray on your knees that we would someday become
communist," and "The peace proposal of the Viet Cong is the only
honorable, just, possible way to achieve peace in Vietnam."

February 16, 1971 -- Jane Fonda and Donald Sutherland form "FTA" (F***
The Army), an anti-war, anti-American road show that tours near Army
bases in order to undermine troop morale. Skits and songs portray
American defeats, soldiers refusing to fight, and the murder of officers
by their troops. FTA cast members mingle with soldiers after the shows,
encouraging them to desert or to sabotage the Army.

March 14 - 18, 1971 -- Jane Fonda, Mark Lane, and VVAW representative
Michael Hunter fly to Europe for a five-day tour. In Paris, Fonda meets
privately with Madame Binh of the PRG, then the three activists fly to
London, where Fonda alleges American atrocities that include "applying
electrodes to prisoners' genitals, mass rapes, slicing off of body
parts, scalping, skinning alive, and leaving 'heat tablets' around which
burned the insides of children who ate them.'"

May 3, 1971 -- VVAW members throw bags of cow manure on the steps of the
Mall Entrance to the Pentagon, then offer to clean up the mess in return
for an audience with an assistant Secretary of Defense. This offer is
rejected, and 28 people are arrested and charged with disorderly conduct.

May 25, 1971 -- Kerry appears on 60 Minutes with Morley Safer. Asked
whether he wants to be President of the United States, Kerry replies in
the negative, and calls it a "crazy question."



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Big T
2004-09-21 19:00:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Serious Sam
Post by paul
Oh, thats right. You dems addressed the Jane Fonda issue (treason) by
picking her poisonous backstabbing partner in treason to run for president.
Amen!
http://ice.he.net/~freepnet/kerry/index.php?topic=Timeline
June, 1970 -- Kerry joins Vietnam Veterans Against the War (VVAW), a
national veterans group that is part of the Peoples Coalition for Peace
and Justice. The PCPJ is a broad coalition of local and national
organizations, including the Communist Party, USA, "committed to
conducting demonstrations aimed at ending the war in Indochina, and
poverty, racism and injustice at home." The VVAW, CCI and PCPJ all have
headquarters at 156 Fifth Avenue in New York City. VVAW Executive
Secretary Al Hubbard, a former Black Panther, is also on the
coordinating committee of the PCPJ. Hubbard soon appoints Kerry to the
VVAW's Executive Committee, bypassing the normal election process.
September 7, 1970 -- At the conclusion of Operation RAW, a rally is held
in Valley Forge, featuring speeches by John Kerry, Jane Fonda, and Mark
Lane. Fonda is quoted as saying that "...My Lai was not an isolated
incident but rather a way of life for many of our military."
September 11, 1970 -- A VVAW Executive Committee meeting is attended by
president Jan Crumb, executive secretary Al Hubbard, treasurer Jason
Gettinger, Northeast representative John Kerry, and three others. The
organization leadership decides to picket against the National Guard
Association in New York, send Hubbard on a "speaking tour" with Jane
Fonda, consider an "appropriate induction center action for purpose of
making clear transition from citizen to war criminal," and "sponsor turn
in of war crimes testimony to UN" after the Winter Soldier event.
November 22, 1970 -- During a fund-raising tour for GI deserters,
Vietnam Veterans Against the War and the Black Panthers, Jane Fonda is
quoted in the Detroit Free Press as telling a University of Michigan
audience, "I would think that if you understood what communism was, you
would hope, you would pray on your knees that we would someday become
communist," and "The peace proposal of the Viet Cong is the only
honorable, just, possible way to achieve peace in Vietnam."
February 16, 1971 -- Jane Fonda and Donald Sutherland form "FTA" (F***
The Army), an anti-war, anti-American road show that tours near Army
bases in order to undermine troop morale. Skits and songs portray
American defeats, soldiers refusing to fight, and the murder of officers
by their troops. FTA cast members mingle with soldiers after the shows,
encouraging them to desert or to sabotage the Army.
March 14 - 18, 1971 -- Jane Fonda, Mark Lane, and VVAW representative
Michael Hunter fly to Europe for a five-day tour. In Paris, Fonda meets
privately with Madame Binh of the PRG, then the three activists fly to
London, where Fonda alleges American atrocities that include "applying
electrodes to prisoners' genitals, mass rapes, slicing off of body
parts, scalping, skinning alive, and leaving 'heat tablets' around which
burned the insides of children who ate them.'"
May 3, 1971 -- VVAW members throw bags of cow manure on the steps of the
Mall Entrance to the Pentagon, then offer to clean up the mess in return
for an audience with an assistant Secretary of Defense. This offer is
rejected, and 28 people are arrested and charged with disorderly conduct.
May 25, 1971 -- Kerry appears on 60 Minutes with Morley Safer. Asked
whether he wants to be President of the United States, Kerry replies in
the negative, and calls it a "crazy question."
http://www.1stcavmedic.com/Jane_Fonda/Jane_admiration2-small.jpg
http://www.la4israel.org/images2004/kerrygirlfriendfonda.jpg
http://www.nojohnkerry.org/imagemedia/fonda1.jpg
http://www.anticommunism.org/images/HanoiJane.gif
--
This is all you need to know for this election:

(Videotape, MEET THE PRESS, April 18, 1971):
MR. KERRY (Vietnam Veterans Against the War): There are all kinds of
atrocities and I would have to say that, yes, yes, I committed the same kind
of atrocities as thousands of other soldiers have committed in that I took
part in shootings in free-fire zones. I conducted harassment and
interdiction fire. I used 50-caliber machine guns which we were granted and
ordered to use, which were our only weapon against people. I took part in
search-and-destroy missions, in the burning of villages. All of this is
contrary to the laws of warfare. All of this is contrary to the Geneva
Conventions and all of this ordered as a matter of written established
policy by the government of the United States from the top down.

4 years experience as Commander in Chief versus 4 months as a War Criminal?
Tough choice, huh?


The email is real but if you ain't in my
address book, you ain't gettin' past
the guard.

Big T
grandwazoo
2004-09-21 21:56:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by paul
Post by Serious Sam
Post by paul
Oh, thats right. You dems addressed the Jane Fonda issue (treason) by
picking her poisonous backstabbing partner in treason to run for
president.
Post by Serious Sam
Amen!
http://ice.he.net/~freepnet/kerry/index.php?topic=Timeline
June, 1970 -- Kerry joins Vietnam Veterans Against the War (VVAW), a
national veterans group that is part of the Peoples Coalition for Peace
and Justice. The PCPJ is a broad coalition of local and national
organizations, including the Communist Party, USA, "committed to
conducting demonstrations aimed at ending the war in Indochina, and
poverty, racism and injustice at home." The VVAW, CCI and PCPJ all have
headquarters at 156 Fifth Avenue in New York City. VVAW Executive
Secretary Al Hubbard, a former Black Panther, is also on the
coordinating committee of the PCPJ. Hubbard soon appoints Kerry to the
VVAW's Executive Committee, bypassing the normal election process.
September 7, 1970 -- At the conclusion of Operation RAW, a rally is held
in Valley Forge, featuring speeches by John Kerry, Jane Fonda, and Mark
Lane. Fonda is quoted as saying that "...My Lai was not an isolated
incident but rather a way of life for many of our military."
September 11, 1970 -- A VVAW Executive Committee meeting is attended by
president Jan Crumb, executive secretary Al Hubbard, treasurer Jason
Gettinger, Northeast representative John Kerry, and three others. The
organization leadership decides to picket against the National Guard
Association in New York, send Hubbard on a "speaking tour" with Jane
Fonda, consider an "appropriate induction center action for purpose of
making clear transition from citizen to war criminal," and "sponsor turn
in of war crimes testimony to UN" after the Winter Soldier event.
November 22, 1970 -- During a fund-raising tour for GI deserters,
Vietnam Veterans Against the War and the Black Panthers, Jane Fonda is
quoted in the Detroit Free Press as telling a University of Michigan
audience, "I would think that if you understood what communism was, you
would hope, you would pray on your knees that we would someday become
communist," and "The peace proposal of the Viet Cong is the only
honorable, just, possible way to achieve peace in Vietnam."
February 16, 1971 -- Jane Fonda and Donald Sutherland form "FTA" (F***
The Army), an anti-war, anti-American road show that tours near Army
bases in order to undermine troop morale. Skits and songs portray
American defeats, soldiers refusing to fight, and the murder of officers
by their troops. FTA cast members mingle with soldiers after the shows,
encouraging them to desert or to sabotage the Army.
March 14 - 18, 1971 -- Jane Fonda, Mark Lane, and VVAW representative
Michael Hunter fly to Europe for a five-day tour. In Paris, Fonda meets
privately with Madame Binh of the PRG, then the three activists fly to
London, where Fonda alleges American atrocities that include "applying
electrodes to prisoners' genitals, mass rapes, slicing off of body
parts, scalping, skinning alive, and leaving 'heat tablets' around which
burned the insides of children who ate them.'"
May 3, 1971 -- VVAW members throw bags of cow manure on the steps of the
Mall Entrance to the Pentagon, then offer to clean up the mess in return
for an audience with an assistant Secretary of Defense. This offer is
rejected, and 28 people are arrested and charged with disorderly conduct.
May 25, 1971 -- Kerry appears on 60 Minutes with Morley Safer. Asked
whether he wants to be President of the United States, Kerry replies in
the negative, and calls it a "crazy question."
http://www.1stcavmedic.com/Jane_Fonda/Jane_admiration2-small.jpg
http://www.la4israel.org/images2004/kerrygirlfriendfonda.jpg
http://www.nojohnkerry.org/imagemedia/fonda1.jpg
http://www.anticommunism.org/images/HanoiJane.gif
--
MR. KERRY (Vietnam Veterans Against the War): There are all kinds of
atrocities and I would have to say that, yes, yes, I committed the same kind
of atrocities as thousands of other soldiers have committed in that I took
part in shootings in free-fire zones. I conducted harassment and
interdiction fire. I used 50-caliber machine guns which we were granted and
ordered to use, which were our only weapon against people. I took part in
search-and-destroy missions, in the burning of villages. All of this is
contrary to the laws of warfare. All of this is contrary to the Geneva
Conventions and all of this ordered as a matter of written established
policy by the government of the United States from the top down.
4 years experience as Commander in Chief versus 4 months as a War Criminal?
Tough choice, huh?
Big T
Mere name calling at best. This goes to the point:

Blair was also warned that Bush considered taking out
Saddam Hussein to be "unfinished business" - a "grudge match" - and that if
Britain wanted to go to war legally against Iraq, Blair would have to
"wrongfoot" Saddam and get him to slip up over weapons inspections in order
to give the UK an excuse for war.
Serious Sam
2004-09-21 22:03:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by grandwazoo
Blair was also warned that Bush considered taking out
Saddam Hussein to be "unfinished business" - a "grudge match"
Feb 23, 1998: "Saddam Hussein has already used these weapons and has
made it clear that he has the intent to continue to try, by virtue of
his duplicity and secrecy, to continue to do so. That is a threat to the
stability of the Middle East. It is a threat with respect to the
potential of terrorist activities on a global basis. It is a threat even
to regions near but not exactly in the Middle East." The Disgrace of
John Kerry by Kevin Willmann Saturday, April 05, 2003

Oct 9, 1998: "We urge you, after consulting with Congress, and
consistent with the U.S. Constitution and laws, to take necessary
actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect
Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq's
refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs." Letter to
President Clinton, signed by Sens. Carl Levin, Tom Daschle, John Kerry,
and others.

Sep 6, 2002: "If Saddam Hussein is unwilling to bend to the
international community's already existing order, then he will have
invited enforcement, even if that enforcement is mostly at the hands of
the United States, a right we retain even if the Security Council fails
to act." Op-Ed, "We Still Have A Choice On Iraq," The New York Times

Oct 9, 2002: "I will be voting to give the President of the United
States the authority to use force-- if necessary-- to disarm Saddam
Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass
destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security."
Senate Speech

http://www.kerryquotes.com/

Serious Sam
2004-09-21 18:38:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by az-willie
I wonder why the right wingers don't make such a fuss when Limbaugh gets
caught telling an untruth
Possibly because he presents himself as an "entertainer" not a JOURNALIST!
t***@encompass.net
2004-09-21 19:34:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Serious Sam
Post by az-willie
I wonder why the right wingers don't make such a fuss when Limbaugh gets
caught telling an untruth
Possibly because he presents himself as an "entertainer" not a JOURNALIST!
You think TV 'journalists' are not entertainers?

LOL!

Labels lie.
Serious Sam
2004-09-21 20:13:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by t***@encompass.net
Post by Serious Sam
Post by az-willie
I wonder why the right wingers don't make such a fuss when Limbaugh gets
caught telling an untruth
Possibly because he presents himself as an "entertainer" not a JOURNALIST!
You think TV 'journalists' are not entertainers?
Well in Rather's case...maybe...
Post by t***@encompass.net
LOL!
Labels lie.
Agreed.

Rather has lied when he passed himself as an objective journalist, and
it's not the first time either...

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1211794/posts

Ben Barnes, who was invited by Dan Rather to come onto 60 Minutes to
claim that he got George W. Bush into the Texas Air National Guard, is a
high-roller in the Texas Democratic party.

Barnes has already been documented as a top John Kerry campaign donor,
but in 2001, a Democratic fundraiser took place in which Dan Rather was
the main speaker. On March 21, 2001, an assortment of Austin's
well-to-do Democrats paid as much as $1,000 to attend a party held in
the backyard of Austin City Council member Will Wynn. Rather raised
$20,000 for the Texas Democratic party at the event to which he was
invited by his daughter, activist Robin Rather.


On the John Kerry Web site, Ben Barnes of Austin, TX is listed as giving
"$100,000 and above" to the campaign. Of course, Rather has given much more.
j***@sonic.net
2004-09-21 20:43:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Serious Sam
Post by t***@encompass.net
Post by Serious Sam
Post by az-willie
I wonder why the right wingers don't make such a fuss when Limbaugh gets
caught telling an untruth
Possibly because he presents himself as an "entertainer" not a JOURNALIST!
You think TV 'journalists' are not entertainers?
Well in Rather's case...maybe...
Post by t***@encompass.net
LOL!
Labels lie.
Agreed.
Rather has lied when he passed himself as an objective journalist, and
it's not the first time either...
So has Paul Harvey "News and Commentary".

Your point?
Serious Sam
2004-09-21 21:47:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@sonic.net
Post by Serious Sam
Post by t***@encompass.net
Post by Serious Sam
Post by az-willie
I wonder why the right wingers don't make such a fuss when Limbaugh gets
caught telling an untruth
Possibly because he presents himself as an "entertainer" not a JOURNALIST!
You think TV 'journalists' are not entertainers?
Well in Rather's case...maybe...
Post by t***@encompass.net
LOL!
Labels lie.
Agreed.
Rather has lied when he passed himself as an objective journalist, and
it's not the first time either...
So has Paul Harvey
Is he in play today?

No.

Go return yer Bose radio if ya don't like it.
Serious Sam
2004-09-21 17:33:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Transition Zone
'Why Bush Left Texas'
Why Skerry killed civvys:

While in command of Swift Boat 44, Kerry and crew operated without
prudence in a Free Fire Zone, carelessly firing at targets of
opportunity racking up a number of enemy kills and some civilians. His
body count included-- a woman, her baby, a 12 year-old boy, an elderly
man and several South Vietnamese soldiers.

"It is one of those terrible things, and I'll never forget, ever, the
sight of that child,"

http://www.kerryquotes.com/
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